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vliou2173
08-16-2007, 04:05 PM
One of the reasons I am hoping Veil that will address is the problem with HID lights..

I drive at night 90-100% of the time (i'm a bat), and I love the HID's on my Infiniti. From what I read, it's a HIT or MISS with HID's. Some ppl say that the neat blueness is gone, some say the distinct lines are gone, some say that there is visible light output reduction.

Any changes for the future?

erickonphoenix
08-16-2007, 04:32 PM
I took the veil off because of the headlight degredation on the xenon lights in the C6.

FlyinZX-10R
08-16-2007, 09:19 PM
Headlights on a motorcycle are the only thing that make you visable to other vehicles. Im planning on an HID kit for my bike, so anything that reduces the light output is a no-no for me. I have such a small frontal area and such small lights that a single jammer head would probably do it for me.

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q247/djice929/DSC01810.jpg

JDS
08-19-2007, 09:23 AM
I'm gonna guess that with HIDs, you should have sooo much light output, you can afford to lose a bit.

I mean it's the people with normal lights who should be worrying about losing output, because we don't have much to begin with.

As far as losing the "cool blueness" :roll: I think Veil actually causes a very slight blue shift, so you'll actually get a bit more.

erickonphoenix
08-19-2007, 11:33 AM
Headlights on a motorcycle are the only thing that make you visable to other vehicles. Im planning on an HID kit for my bike, so anything that reduces the light output is a no-no for me. I have such a small frontal area and such small lights that a single jammer head would probably do it for me.

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q247/djice929/DSC01810.jpg

I always liked the invisibility factor with bikes. Although I know it sux when people pull out in front of you.

ok Nascars on, gotta go!

JDS
08-19-2007, 02:06 PM
http://www.bustedtees.com/bt/images/BT-boringnascar-gallery-6.jpg

edweird
08-19-2007, 03:14 PM
Rained out today.

Stealth 795
09-03-2007, 07:20 PM
I just got a hid kit and put it on yesterday...
It is so freakin bright as people covering there faces while being in front of my vehicle...
I also have the 12000...
Just wanted to share thats it way way to bright

FlyinZX-10R
09-03-2007, 10:18 PM
The higher the color temperature, the less useable light it puts out. 4300K puts out 20% more light than 6000K. I ordered the 4300K setup for my bike. I should get it sometime this week hopefully.

JDS
09-03-2007, 10:20 PM
I also have the 12000...I think they're covering their faces because you're shining Ricer Blue on them and they don't want to get infected. Seriously, why would you buy those bulbs?

Silverstreak98
09-05-2007, 11:20 PM
X2


And if you haven't retrofitted you headlights with HID compatible projectors you are blinding everyone you drive past, and probably putting less usable light on the road where you need it.

noorudeenshakur
09-06-2007, 07:38 PM
I also have the 12000...I think they're covering their faces because you're shining Ricer Blue on them and they don't want to get infected. Seriously, why would you buy those bulbs?

:lol: :lol: X3 :lol: :lol:


I have 6000k in my car. They are very nice and white with a very slight hint of blue that is barely there but its noticeable.

The 4300k is just a little too yellow for me.

You notice how yellow they are when you pull up next to a guy with 6000k

6000k has a nice white light, with more than enough lumens to do the trick.

I have been considering ordering some veil but not sure how well it will work with the plastic VW headlights and HID's i currently have. I hear veilo doesnt like some plastic headlight housings and I wouldnt want to damage them. Any VW owners in here with veil? Photos?

A little hint to people getting HID kits...get the Bi-xenon ones so you keep your high beams and dont have to move your low beams up and blind poeple to compensate for the loss of your highs.

FlyinZX-10R
09-06-2007, 10:29 PM
I think factory HIDS are 4300k? Im not concerned with how it looks, just how it performs. During the day, I use my high beam full time for visability. At night, i'll usually keep the high beam off in the city, but on for the freeway. If im moving in the left lane and someone is up ahead, they will usually move over when they see me coming. My stock lights are really bright, i can't wait to see the HIDS!

noorudeenshakur
09-06-2007, 10:49 PM
yeah 4300k is factory HID temperature, they look great and make a huge improvement.

If you bike uses a single bulb for HI/low beams look into getting a bi-xenon hid kit.

Veil Guy
09-06-2007, 11:02 PM
I am curious.

If one has conventional halogen bulbs, can on get 6K color temp versions that won't run too hot inside conventional housings?

Veil Guy 8)

JDS
09-06-2007, 11:07 PM
I am curious.

If one has conventional halogen bulbs, can on get 6K color temp versions that won't run too hot inside conventional housings?

Veil Guy 8)Oh crap, now I understand why Veil causes a blue-shift...VEIL GUY IS A RICER!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Silverstreak98
09-06-2007, 11:22 PM
I am curious.

If one has conventional halogen bulbs, can on get 6K color temp versions that won't run too hot inside conventional housings?

Veil Guy 8)

HID bulbs actually run cooler than convential halogen bulbs, so no.

Seriously guys if you are thinking about putting in HID's at least look into doing a HID projector retrofit. You'll be much happier with the result.

Check out www.hidplanet.com/forums lots of great info on HID lighting and retrofits!

Helped me out a ton when I did mine!

Veil Guy
09-07-2007, 04:56 AM
Silverstreak98,

I have occasionally thought about putting retrofit kits of BMW's Angel eyes but never could seem to find a place that I really understood could work well in that application.

I have seen (I think it is) jimmy's 540 website, in which his 5, looks very nice but I have err'd on the side of being a bit cautious.

Veil Guy 8)

TQUILL
09-07-2007, 07:30 AM
I am curious.

If one has conventional halogen bulbs, can on get 6K color temp versions that won't run too hot inside conventional housings?

Veil Guy 8)

Now I'm not sure with other cars, but people with mine (03 350Z) who tried to put HID bulbs (6000k for example), the wiring sometimes melted.

The temperatures are cooler, but from what I've read, I believe the voltage is higher. Some cars (at least I'm told) don't have the proper wiring to support HID bulbs.

I have had ZERO experience myself in this area, I've just read about some cases on the 350Z forum.

PMoth
09-07-2007, 08:05 AM
I am curious.

If one has conventional halogen bulbs, can on get 6K color temp versions that won't run too hot inside conventional housings?

Veil Guy 8)

Now I'm not sure with other cars, but people with mine (03 350Z) who tried to put HID bulbs (6000k for example), the wiring sometimes melted.

The temperatures are cooler, but from what I've read, I believe the voltage is higher. Some cars (at least I'm told) don't have the proper wiring to support HID bulbs.

I have had ZERO experience myself in this area, I've just read about some cases on the 350Z forum.

Hid ballast pull more current at start-up than conventional halogen bulbs. So simply adding them to exhisting wiring could cause blown headlight fuses and or melted wiring. I had an h7 rebased d2r (denso/phillips) 4300k kit in my 05 ninja 636. Light output was greatly improved. The glare wasnt too bad and the cutoff was better than the factory halogens but not as precise as the projector Hid.

Flyin ZX10r, if you buy the correct bulb for your housings (rebased d2s for your bulb type), you shouldnt have any problems. Goodluck.

Silverstreak98
09-07-2007, 08:11 AM
Yep stock wiring sometimes cannot take the stress especially on older cars, since HID lights take much more power to start up but use much less power after they turn on.

So what most ppl do is run a relay that hooks up to the existing wiring both headlights and the battery. This way all the neccesary power is being taken directly from the battery, so unneccessary stress is not being put on the stock wiring.

FlyinZX-10R
09-07-2007, 08:36 AM
yeah 4300k is factory HID temperature, they look great and make a huge improvement.

If you bike uses a single bulb for HI/low beams look into getting a bi-xenon hid kit.

My left side is my high beam, low beam on the right. The low beam produces a wide low light while the highbeam is a very tight spot. They are already really bright, i just wanted more.

Some guys on the zx10 forum said something about installing a relay. How hard is this to install? when i turn my ignition on, my lights will stay off until i hit the starter. Will a relay still work? Im assuming this is something i could get at a radio shack, etc?

Silverstreak98
09-07-2007, 09:06 AM
Probably not, I recommend a custom one. Either make it yourself (you can find instructions from the forum I listed earlier), or there are ppl there who will make ones for you for $15-$20. There is a section for sellers there too, just connect one that has a banner listing they make relays.

Not hard to install once you get it. Connect to battery, and original wiring harnesses from both headlights and you should be good to go.

noorudeenshakur
09-07-2007, 10:44 AM
I am curious.

If one has conventional halogen bulbs, can on get 6K color temp versions that won't run too hot inside conventional housings?

Veil Guy 8)

Look at Nokya 7k bulbs but be sure to get stage 1 only. The will work with your stock housing and not cause it to melt. They are regular halogen bulbs that give you that HID look.

if you get stage 2 you will need to upgrade your harness otherwise it will melt.

Seriously though just get a bi xenon HID kit at 6k and you will be better off. They run cooler and use less power and put out MUCH more light.

Veil Guy
09-07-2007, 04:38 PM
Can you recommend a decent trustworthy place?

Here's the site to which I was referring:

http://www.jimmy540i.com/

Thanks for the guidance guys.

Veil Guy 8)

noorudeenshakur
09-07-2007, 11:52 PM
ebay.

Get it from a seller with a good feedback and oull be fine besides ebays prices cant be beat.

Veil Guy
09-08-2007, 01:15 AM
noorudeenshakur,

Thanks. I checked out a site and it appears that these lights are at 6k, 7k, 8k, and 10K!!!

Are these systems plug-and-play replacement bulbs (balasts) which fit into existing housings?

Do you know if there is an angel eye solution?

Thanks...but I am a newbie when it comes to this stuff.

Veil Guy 8)

Veil Guy
09-08-2007, 01:24 AM
Silverstreak98,

Thanks, dude.

I'll check out that forum.

Veil Guy 8)

Silverstreak98
09-08-2007, 08:21 AM
I would try researching what type of ballasts BMW uses OEM. I definitely wouldn't go with a kit off ebay, sure they might work out of the box but when the ballasts fail a year or less down the road you will probably not be happy.

Lots of people like the Hella/Philips Generation-3 Ballast and many cars use these as OEM equipment.

They sell complete packages (http://www.hidplanet.com/package.html)

Veil Guy
09-08-2007, 10:03 AM
Silverstreak98,

Thanks again. I did join that other forum and posted a question. Hopefully someone can provide me with good info.

Veil Guy 8)

SmaartAasSaabr
09-08-2007, 05:49 PM
I don't know why you guys would want blue, blue's hard on the eyes ;) Selective yellow FTW! 8)

Veil Guy
09-08-2007, 06:03 PM
SmaartAasSaabr,

I don't understand your post...

What does selective yellow FTW mean?

Personally I dig violet, blue/violet look of those nice HIDs, put them into 'Angel Eyes' and these cars look soooo cool.

Veil Guy 8)

ELVATO
09-08-2007, 09:41 PM
SmaartAasSaabr,

I don't understand your post...

What does selective yellow FTW mean?

Personally I dig violet, blue/violet look of those nice HIDs, put them into 'Angel Eyes' and these cars look soooo cool.

Veil Guy 8)

LOL, from what I understand, selective yellow is a type of light/headlight that gives off a yellow color. Apparently, this type of light is alot brighter than it's "bluer" counterparts. And FTW, well "for the win" :)

From wikipedia:


The intent of selective yellow is to improve vision by removing shorter, blue wavelengths from the projected light, as these wavelengths are difficult for the human visual system to process properly, as well as causing perceived dazzle effects in rain, fog and snow and problems with glare.

IRCMUSA
09-08-2007, 10:17 PM
woot FOR THE WIN!!!

Veil Guy
09-08-2007, 10:26 PM
IRCMUSA,

I feel stupid. What does 'For the Win' mean?

I most be getting too old (it's not the age, per se, it's the mileage :wink: )

Veil Guy 8)

Veil Guy
09-08-2007, 10:27 PM
Silverstreak98,

Thanks for the referral to the HID forum. I feel like these guys really know what the heck they're talking about.

Veil Guy 8)

Silverstreak98
09-08-2007, 11:39 PM
Yep they sure do.

Usually everyone on there is very helpful too! Remember to read the stickys as well they contain a lot of good basic info.

JDS
09-09-2007, 10:45 PM
"for the win" = "is good"

Internet slang right there, and stupid internet slang at that.

Yes, I'm guilty of using it every once in a while. I apologize.

Veil Guy
09-10-2007, 05:31 AM
JDS,

Thanks for the assist. :wink:

Veil Guy 8)

FlyinZX-10R
09-12-2007, 10:35 PM
Well, I installed a 4300k HID light for my low beam (right side of my bike) and took it out for a spin tonight. It made an incredible difference! The thing i really noticed is the contrast of objects and things seem to be more clearly defined. Im going to install the high beam tommorow morning. I parked and walked down the road a bit to look at it. Its a very brilliant white light. Im sure the high beam will be really impressive.
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q247/djice929/DSC01810.jpg

IRCMUSA
09-13-2007, 05:34 AM
IRCMUSA,

I feel stupid. What does 'For the Win' mean?

I most be getting too old (it's not the age, per se, it's the mileage :wink: )

Veil Guy 8)

FTW i think was on a old game show once apon a time

here is some more FYI :wink:


22B = a special limited edition Impreza released in Japan and England
4EAT = Four Speed Electronic Automatic Transmission
555 = A tabacco company that used to be a sponsor of Subaru World Rally Team
5MT = Five speed manual transmission
6MT = Six speed manual transmission
ABS = Antilock Braking System
AFAIK = As Far As I Know
AFU = All F'd up
AKI = Anti-Knock Index (the US Octane Rating)
ALK = Anti-Lift Kit
ALS = Anti Lag System- keeps a turbo spooled off throttle by adding fuel into the exhaust... it makes a distinctive "bang" as the fuel ignites
AMHIK = Ask Me How I Know
Amp = Amplifier (or, unit of electrical current)
AP = AccessPort, Cobb Tuning ECU upgrade
AT = Automatic transmission
ATF = Automatic Transmission Fluid
ATM = Atmosphere- a measure of air pressure 1 atm = 14.7psi = 1 Bar
Autox = Autocross
Auto-x = Autocross
Avatar = Personalized picture for the boards
AWD = All Wheel Drive
Backbox = English for "muffler"
BAR = A measure of air pressure 1 Bar= 14.7psi = 1 atm
BFD = Big F'in Deal
Bhp = Brake horsepower
Bling = The "sound" light makes when reflected off of a shiny surface, like chrome rims
Bonnet = English for "hood"
Boot = English for "trunk"
BOV = Blow-Off Valve
BRP = Blue Ridge Pearl
BTCC = British Touring Car Championship
Bump = To bring a topic back to the top of the forum just by posting something
CAI = Cold Air Intake
CARB = California Air Resources Board
Cat = Catalytic Convertor
Catalunya = A special limited edition Impreza
CB = Citizens Band (two-way radio)
Cd = Coefficient of drag- lower is better
CE = Check Engine (Light)
CEL = Check Engine Light
CF = Carbon fiber
CO2 = Carbon Dioxide
CV = Constant Velocity (joint)
CVT = Continuously Variable Transmission
DCCD = Driver Controlled Center Differential
Diff = Differential
DIN = Deutsche Industrial Norm. German standard for radio dimensions, approximately 7 inches wide by 2 inches high
DMS = Drummond Motor Sport, provider of high-end rally suspension.
Dogbox = A transmission with straight cut gears ("dog" gears) usually with partial or no synchros. The stock 5MT transmission uses helical cut gears with synchros, for ease of driving and low noise (straight cut gears are noisy)
DOHC = Dual overhead camshaft engine configuration
DP = Downpipe(from turbo to catback, or turbo to midpipe depending on manufacturer)
DSM = Diamond Star Motors (Mitsubishi Motors)
DSPO = Dip S--t Previous Owner
DTC = Diagnostic Trouble Code
Dyno = A "rolling road" device used to measure vehicle power,etc.
EBC = Electronic Boost Controller
ECU = Engine Control Unit, or Electronic Control Unit (computer)
EFI = Electronic Fuel Injection
EGT = Exhaust Gas Temperature
EGR = Exhaust Gas Recirculation, an emissions lowering technology
EJ20 = Engine code for a 2.0 liter Subaru engine
EJ25 = Engine code for a 2.5 liter Subaru engine
Estate = English "wagon"
ESP = A type of speed trap used by law enforcement
ET = Estimated Time(at the strip)
F1 = Formula One (racing)
FHI = Fuji Heavy Industries, Subaru's parent company
FF = Front Engined, Front Wheel Drive
FMIC = Front Mounted Intercooler
Forgies = Usually, forged pistons
FR = Front Engined, Rear Wheel Drive
FRP = Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic
FRS = Family Radio Service (two-way radio; aka "TalkAbout")
FS = For Sale
FT = For Trade
FTW= For The Win
FTW = F*** The World
FWD = Front Wheel Drive
FWIW = For What It's Worth
Ga = Gauge (lower number = thicker/bigger)
GB = Group Buy
GC8 = Chassis code for Old School Impreza Coupe/Sedan
GDA = Chassis code for New Age WRX Sedan
GDB = Chassis code for New Age STi Sedan
GF8 = Chassis code for Old School Impreza Wagon
GGA = Chassis code for New Age WRX Wagon
GGB = Chassis code for New Age STi Wagon
GOMT = "Grap on my tired" (long story) basically another acronym for "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot"
GS = G-Stock (SCCA autocross class for stock 2.5RS)
GT = A trim level- Usually stands for "Grand Touring"
H-4 = Horizontally opposed four cylinder engine
HID = High Intensity Discharge ("arc headlights")
HMFIC = Head Mo Fo In Charge
HP = Abbreviation of horsepower, a measure of power equal to 550 foot pounds per second (SAE). When used outside of North America, HP usually means metric horsepower, which is approximately equal to .98632 horsepower (SAE)
HTH = Hope that helps
HP = Horsepower
HUD = Heads-up display
IAC = Idle Air Control
IDC = Injector Duty Cycle
I/C or IC = Intercooler
ICQ = Instant messaging chat www.icq.com
ID = Inside Diameter
IIRC = If I Remember (or Recall) Correctly
IMHO = In My Honest (or Humble) Opinion
ITC = Ignition Timing Controller
IWOC = Impreza Web Owner's Club (UK) www.iwoc.freeserve.co.uk
JDM = Japan Domestic Market. Where all the cool stuff goes.
JGTC = Japan Grand Touring Championship
JGTCC = Japan Grand Touring Car Championship
JTCC = Japanese Touring Car Championship
K&N = Brand of high-flow filter products
KB = Kartboy
KPH = Kilometers Per Hour
Kw = Abbreviation of kilowatt, a measure of power approximately equal to 1.341 SAE horsepower
LADAR = LAser Detection And Ranging
LASER = Light Amplification by Stimulated Emissions of Radiation
L33t = A computer hacker term meaning "elite" LHD = Left hand drive
LIDAR = Light Detection And Ranging
LINK = An aftermarket engine management computer.
LOC = Line Out Converter(for stereo system.... speaker wires coverted to RCAs)
LSD = Limited Slip Differential
LSIR = Laguna Seca International Raceway
MAF = Mass Air-Flow Sensor
MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor
MAS = Mass Airflow Sensor
MBC = Manual Boost Controller
MBP = Midnight Black Pearl
McRae = Another limited edition Impreza not available in the US
MIL = Malfunction Indicator Lamp
MON = Motor Octane Number (see also RON)
MPH = Miles Per Hour
MPT = Multi-Plate Transfer (Clutch Pack) used in automatic transmission AWD Subarus
MR = Mid Engined, Rear Wheel Drive
MRT = Middleton Rally Team (Australia) www.mrtrally.com.au
MT = Manual transmission
MY = Model Year
NA = Normally aspirated (not turbo/supercharged)
NASIOC or NABISCO = North American Subaru Impreza Owner's Club
Nm = Abbreviation of newton-meter, a measure of torque approximately equal to .7376 foot-pounds
NOS = One of the manufacturers of Nitrous Oxide kits
NOx = Nitrogen containing compounds that form photochemical smog
O2 = Oxygen (e.g., O2 Sensor)
OBD-II = On Board Diagnostics II (a computerized emission control system)
OBO = Or Best Offer
OBS = Outback Sport (Impreza trim level)
OBW = Outback Wagon
OD = Outside Diameter
OEM = Original Equipment Manufacturer
Offset = The distance between a wheel's mounting surface and its horizontal center
OMG = Oh My God
OT = Off Topic
P1 = A special edition model year 2000 Impreza prepared by Prodrive for the British market
PCV = Positive Crankcase Ventilation (valve)
PITA = Pain in the *** (or a round flatbread with a pocket inside )
PM = Private Message
Post Whore = Someone who posts nonsense to increase their post count
Pot = As in, 4-pot brakes- refers to the number of pistons in the caliper
PS = Abbreviation of Pferdestdrke, the German measure for horsepower
PSI = Pounds per square inch (a measure of air pressure)
PSM = Platinum Silver Metallic
PEBKAC = Probable Error Between Keyboard and Chair (it's your own fault)
R&D = Research and Development
RADAR = RAdio Detection And Ranging (or a character from M*A*S*H )
Rallyx = Rallycross
Rally-x = Rallycross
RB5 = A limited edition British Impreza trim named after WRC driver Richard Burns
RBP = Rally Blue Pearl (paint color)
REX = WRX
RHD = Right hand drive
Rofl = Rolling on the floor laughing
Roflmao = Rolling on the floor laughing my *** off
RON = Research Octane Number (see also MON)
RPM = Revolution per minute
RRFPR = Rising rate fuel pressure regulator
RS = Impreza trim level. Stands for "Rally Sport"
RS-T = Impreza RS with an aftermarket turbocharger
RT = Reation Time(at the strip)
RWD = Rear Wheel Drive
RTFM = Read The F'in Manual
Rwhp = Rear Wheel Horsepower
SAE = Abbreviation of Society of Automotive Engineers, the US motor vehicle engineering standards promulgator and US counterpart to the German DIN
S-AFC = Super Air Flow Converter
S/AFC = Super Air Flow Converter
S/C = Supercharger
Saloon = The Queen's English for "sedan"
SCC = Sport Compact Car magazine
SCCA = Sports Car Club of America
Scoobnuts = Subaru Doughnuts
SEMA = Specialty Equipment Marketers Association
SIDC = Subaru Impreza Driver's Club (UK) www.sidc.co.uk
SIPP = Subaru Internet Performance Panel
Slushbox = Term of endearment for the Subaru 4EAT transmission
SOA = Subaru of America
SOC = Subaru Of Canada
SOJ = Subaru of Japan
SOHC = Single overhead camshaft engine configuration
SOL = Shat out of luck
Solo2 = SCCA Autocross racing
SPD = SPD Tuning Service www.spdusa.com
SPT = Subaru Performance Tuning
Speedo = Speedometer
SPHD = (Redline) Shockproof Heavy Duty Tranny Fluid
SPLW = (Redline) Shockproof Lightweight Tranny Fluid
SRI = Short Ram Intake
SRP = Sedona Red Pearl
SS = Showroom Stock (SCCA road racing class)
STi = Subaru Tecnica International
STM = SilverThorn Metallic
STS = Street Touring - Street Tire (SCCA autocross class)
SVX = A high-end Subaru coupe, produced 1992-1997
Tach = Tachometer
TB = Throttle Body
T/C = Turbocharger
TC = Trouble Code
TC = Torque Converter
TCM = Torque Control Module
TCU = Transmission Control Unit
TDC = Top Dead Center (engine phase)
TEC-II = An engine management system manufactured by Electromotive, Inc.
TMIC = Top Mount Intercooler
TPS = Throttle Position Sensor
Trap = The terminal speed at the end of a 1/4 mile run at the drag strip
Trunkmonkey = See www.trunkmonkey.com
TSB = Technical service bulletin
TSD = Time-Speed-Distance (a type of rallying)
TT = Turbo Timer
TT = Twin-turbo
TTIWWOP = This Thread Is Worthless Without Pics
TTT = To The Top (see also, "bump")
UK300 = Special Limited Edition Prodrive Impreza WRX available only in England
UOR = Unorthodox Racing- A tuning company
UORUD = Unorthodox Racing Underdrive Pulley
UP = Uppipe(from headers to turbo)
UPRD = Under Pressure Reasearch and Development- A Tuning company in Southern California
USDM = US domestic market
UTEC = User tunable electronic computer(engine management)
UTFSF = Use the F'in Search Function
V1 = Valentine One, a high-end radar detector
VASCAR = Vehical Average Speed Computer and Recorder
VC = Viscous Coupling (differential)
VDC = Vehicle Dynamics Control, Subaru's brand of traction (yaw) control
VIN = Vehicle Identification Number
VIR = Virginia International Raceway
VON = Vehicle Order Number (the number assigned to your car before it is asssembled, and before it is given a VIN)
VSS = Vehicle Speed Sensor
VTD = Variable Torque Distribution 4WD
WAI = Warm Air Intake(Short Ram, or in engine bay)
WAPCE = Women Are Pure Concentrated Evil
WOT = Wide open throttle (gassing it)
WRB = World Rally Blue (often called "real blue")
WRC = World Rally Car, or World Rally Championship
WRX = World Rally Experimental
WTB = Want To Buy
WTF = Whiskey Tango Foxtrot (What The F---)
WTLW = Welcome to Last Week
WTLY = Welcome to Last Year
WTT = Want To Trade
YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary
Zeroyon = Japanese reference to the 0-400m (or quartermile racing)
5MT= 5 speed manual transmission
ECU= electronic control unit (main computer/ brains of the outfit)
STi = Subaru Tecnica International
DCCD - driver controlled center differential
TBE - turbo back exhaust
CEL - check engine light
LSD - limited slip differential
WAI - warm air intake
MAF - Mass Air Flow
DP - Downpipe
UP - Uppipe
EGT - Exhaust Gas Temperature
CF - Carbon Fiber
IIRC - If I remember correctly
WTLW - Welcome to last week
WTLY - Welcome to last year
WRB = world rally blue
MBP = midnight black pearl
PSM = platinum silver mettalic

Veil Guy
09-13-2007, 05:39 AM
IRCMUSA,

Wow, dude. That's a lot to consume in one reading! :lol:

Thanks for the schooling of lingo.

When I started BBSing well before the days of the Internet, we had a lot less vocabulary to work it.

LOL, BRB, :), :(. ;) ... really only a handful.

Its been fascinating to watch the evolution of our online vocabulary over these last 25 years...Imaging the next 25? :shock:

Thanks, my friend, your the assist.


Veil Guy 8)

Veil Guy
09-13-2007, 05:41 AM
FlyinZX-10R,

That's a very nice looking stealth bike in the makings there.

May I inquire as to what brand of lights you got at 4300K?

I am familiar with Sikverstars, but I don't believe they're technically considered HIDs...am I correct in this belief?

Veil Guy 8)

FlyinZX-10R
09-13-2007, 11:36 AM
FlyinZX-10R,

That's a very nice looking stealth bike in the makings there.

May I inquire as to what brand of lights you got at 4300K?

I am familiar with Sikverstars, but I don't believe they're technically considered HIDs...am I correct in this belief?

Veil Guy 8)

The HID's are made by HID DYNAMICS. I think they are motorcycle specific. The ballast are very thin and were easy to hide in the fairing. I bought them from an online motorcycle supplier.

Silverstars are not HID's, though they are very bright. I had those in my 929,and they were a big improvement over the stock lights.

Im going to have to find a way to black out my upper fork legs, as they are gold and can be seen from the front of the bike, other than the headlights, they are the only reflective items on the front of the bike.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question387.htm

TSi+WRX
09-14-2007, 10:39 AM
^ Yup, "SilverStar" lamps, made by Sylvania (either US or European), are standard halogen incandescents.

They do burn slightly hotter, and also offer slightly different color-temperature (typically, slightly cooler than "typical" incancescents, approaching more the "white light" territory).

Whether or not you, as an unique individual, may perceive the slight color difference to be of specific benefit to you would be totally a personal issue. For example, The Veil Guy, some people prefer a slightly warmer, more "yellow" light to highlight depth contrast and edge effects, while others seem to take to "whiter" light better.

Overall, most feel, subjectively, that the SilverStar bulbs offer "more" light - however, objectively, this may simply come from the color-temperature difference, particularly so to those who take to the cooler color temperature of the SilverStars, thus rendering a subjective impression that they are "brighter," when, objectively, the lighting output is comparable to other similar-output bulbs.

What is known about the SilverStars, particularly the US-made, is that their quality - specifically, longevity - is somewhat random. I've personally had sets that continued to burn for more than two years, while at the same time, also others that have failed in just weeks - and many others have had this same kind of experience. Although seemingly truly random in terms of occurrence, this longevity issue is at least somewhat related also to bulb-type. For example, the already rather short-lived H7 bulbs typically burn out sooner. If you use SilverStars on your vehicle, I would recommend that you do carry a spare bulb or two, particularly if your headlights are easily and readily accessed.

FlyinZX-10R
09-14-2007, 12:57 PM
I finished installing the high beam and took it out last night. The high beam on my bike is more of a spot beam. Its now WAY to bright to use on the road. The tip of the bulb has no paint/coating on it at all. I was taking a freeway exit last night when some car merged right in front of me at the last second, cutting me off. I flicked the high beam on. It seems to take a few seconds to come to full brightness. The guy in front of my reached up and tilted his mirror way down. It was so bright that the reflection from the back of his car was blinding me. When i got home, i did the same test as i did with the low beam. I parked it and walked down the street to look at it. It was like a spotlight in my eyes. It says they are 4300k and 35 watts, but i have a hard time believing these could be road legal. I might adjust my high beam down a bit, not sure yet though. I'll try and get a picture tonight of a view from the bike with the low and then high beam on, and a vew from the front of the bike.

I gotta get some of these for my truck!

Silverstreak98
09-14-2007, 05:55 PM
So are you high beams HID as well or Silverstars?

FlyinZX-10R
09-14-2007, 08:02 PM
So are you high beams HID as well or Silverstars?

My low beam is on the right, high beam on the left. They are both HID now. Pics will be up later tonight.

Silverstreak98
09-14-2007, 08:54 PM
Well you are right then those lights aren't road legal if the have been placed in reflector housings, or halogen projectors.

I'd like to see pics of your output.

Could you take a picture of the output from about 20-30 ft away from a wall or garage door?

FlyinZX-10R
09-14-2007, 10:10 PM
Sorry for the bad pics, all i have is a cell phone camera.

On Bike - Low Beam
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q247/djice929/OnBike-Low.jpg
On Bike - High Beam
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q247/djice929/OnBike-High.jpg
Front - Standing - Low Beam
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q247/djice929/Front-Standling-Low.jpg
Front - Kneeling - Low Beam
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q247/djice929/Front-Kneeling-Low.jpg
Front - Standing - High Beam
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q247/djice929/Front-Standing-High.jpg
Front - Kneeling - High Beam
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q247/djice929/Front-Kneeling-High.jpg
Across Street - Standing - High Beam
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q247/djice929/Acrossstreet-standing-HIgh.jpg
Front - 20 feet Away - Kneeling - High Beam
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q247/djice929/Front-20feetaway.jpg
On Bike - Low Beam - Garage Door
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q247/djice929/Onbike-driveway-low-1.jpg
On Bike - Low Beam - Garage Door 2
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q247/djice929/OnBike-Driveway-Low.jpg
On Bike - Garage Door - High Beam
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q247/djice929/OnBike-driveway-High.jpg

These are 4300K HID's. I think the high beam might be a bit too much at night. I bet people will flash me even during the day.

noorudeenshakur
09-14-2007, 11:34 PM
Wow man those are bright!

I like them :)

PMoth
09-15-2007, 05:08 AM
You guys have no idea how bright they are until you see them in person. I had them (4300K) on my bike back in early 2005 and my friends could spot me on th highway miles away. I never had to use my high beam because the low beam was brighter, wider, and defined images better than my low and high halogens. Like Flyin-zx10r mentioned earlier, the high beam was only needed to blind rude drivers who endlessly cut off motorcyclists. I had my friend ride my bike at night and the best way to describe it would be that it looks like a really bright star. It even twinkles.

Veil Guy
09-15-2007, 06:59 AM
FlyinZX-10R,

Dude, I had to put on sunglasses just to watch those pictures! :lol:

Veil Guy 8)

ahmadr
09-15-2007, 09:42 AM
It might be a but late, but for anyone thinking about "upgrading" bulbs to HIDs (and no, they are not legal):

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/Hid/conversions/conversions.html

Dan is THE expert on auto lighting. The site has TONS of useful info regarding auto lighting.


As a reminder, the cloudiness of Veil WILL increase the glare to other drivers :(

TSi+WRX
09-17-2007, 06:28 AM
^ Just remember that Stern is not without his own biases - after all, look at what he sells. :)

To a consumer doing "research" in this area, after reading Stern's "informational" site, one would think that there's simply no good to HIDs (and here, we're talking about factory OEM) at all. :wink:

For the other side of the story (i.e. - the advantages of a good, properly designed, HID system), look at various HID/lighting-enthusiast hobbyist sites, such as the HIDPlanet discussion Forums.

A good, properly designed and properly engineered HID system (including proper full-optics retrofits) should be superior to standard traditional incandescents in just about every objective measure. Certainly, some subjective concerns can still introduce enough bias/personal preference to affect the final PERSONLA decision, but then again, actual real-world results, when human end-points are considered, is never that clear-cut. :)

Oh, and before you think I'm "bashing" Stern - know that I've, in this very hobby (at one point in my past, when I was on the engineering tract, I even won an award from the SAE for automotive headlight glare reduction), repeatedly cited Stern's website as favorable argument points, and what's more, I'm also a repeat customer of his, and currently use his suggested slightly-overwattage low-beam application as well as HIR1 high-beam application in my own daily-driver.

Similarly, before anyone thinks I'm bashing HIDs, I'll confess not only that I do like them, but that I also have a full and proper OEM-optics and components retrofit on my 2Ga/b DSM.

(And oh, yes - I also agree firmly with Stern's views that improper plug-and-play bulb-ballst-ignitor is not desireable at all.)

Regardless:

There's two sides to every story, and there's no easy winner here, either. What can be said at the moment is that, particularly with the advent of HIR technology, traditional incandescents may have reached the true pinnacle and full extent of its performance possibilities and potentials. Meanwhile, newer technologies such as HID, LED - and yet even others - are either in their infancy (and are just starting to become more optimized) or are outright new. Just as halogen incandescents once presented a revolutionary improvement in automotive lighting capabilities, we will once again see this as HIDs become more and more prominent (and as costs decrease, leading to trickle-down; look at LED-auxiliary lighting applications, too), and also, as newer lighting technologies present.

:)

ahmadr
09-17-2007, 09:32 AM
I definitely agree with you on most parts. Dan doesn't like HIDs a lot, but doesn't say there is no positive side to them. One important one for manufacturers is energy efficiency.
Dan actually suggested finding some OEM HIDs for my focus (but 05+ focuses don't have OEM HIDs any more) ;)
Stuck with 9007s, I got a pair of GE NightHawks from Walmart. FWIW, they are far better than Sylvania XtraVisions (tried them + Dan). I'm sure Phillips VisionPlus would have been better, but I should have bought them online (e.g. from Dan) and more expensively. And Dan told me they are very close :D

Anyway, two valid points from Dan's site are:
1. bulb-only retrofits (counting for *most* retrofits) are bad, dangerous, illegal.
2. The actual color temperature of HIDs is not their advantage. Higher temps feel nicer/crisper, but perform worse. Going for higher temp HIDs or blue coated halogens is ridiculous.

I should also add that based on my personal experience with Dan, he isn't the type that just wants to sell you stuff, or even pushes you in that direction.

And, it's a shame HIRs didn't get off. I guess they couldn't get the quality up to OEM standards.

TSi+WRX
09-20-2007, 10:19 AM
Anyway, two valid points from Dan's site are:
1. bulb-only retrofits (counting for *most* retrofits) are bad, dangerous, illegal.
2. The actual color temperature of HIDs is not their advantage. Higher temps feel nicer/crisper, but perform worse. Going for higher temp HIDs or blue coated halogens is ridiculous.

Agreed, 100%, with both points. :)

And to go along with the latter.....

The strange thing is that a little while ago, makers of tactical flashlights (true "life and death" situations, if anything can be said to be of that kind of importance) started to look at some research that said our eyes were actually better adapted to the warmer (i.e. lower color temperature) "firelight" hues, particularly under total-darkness situations.

I know that while I do "take" better, overall, to the 4300 to 4600K range, my night-time vision, particularly in terms of edge delineation and depth perception, is actually much better with significantly yellower light. When combined with inclimate weather situations, I actually do see, with my own visual preferences, a lot of benefit with selective-yellow.



I should also add that based on my personal experience with Dan, he isn't the type that just wants to sell you stuff, or even pushes you in that direction.

Agreed - he is an ethical individual, and he does believe in what he is saying, as well as in the products that he sells.

Stealth 795
09-21-2007, 09:47 AM
If xenon lighting is such a bad idea then, why do bmw acura and the rest of them keep putting them in there oem !!??

I have 10,000 bulbs with ballasts and there sickly bright ... But then half the cars on the road have these bulbs running as well so, must be soemthing about xenon! 8) ....

TSi+WRX
09-21-2007, 10:06 AM
^ "Sickly bright" indeed :roll: - switch down to the proper <5000K application, and trust me, you'll truly see better, as well as allow your fellow motorists to see much better.

The science here doesn't lie. Anything that's more than 5000K, and you're pretty much seeing less, not more. And just by using brute-force - aka "having more light" - to overcome this issue is definitely far from the right way to go about doing this, and there are many situations, not only in terms of keeping your fellow drivers (and in-turn, you) "safe," that will easily highlight the detrimental effects of such high color-temperature lighting.

Aside from the true-science aspect, just check any auto-enthusiast or lighting-enthusiast Forum, and you'll find that to-a-one, in both communities, such high color-temperature is regarded as outright "Rice." Possibly the next worst thing to using "blue-bulbs." Just a friendly word: I wouldn't go about bragging about your 10,000K bulbs.... :) If you are seeking that purple-blue color that you see from high-end automobiles' HID systems, please note that this is an optical illusion that you, as the on-looker, sees. From behind the wheel of these vehicles, with their factory-OEM 4300 to 4600K HID systems, the view to the driver is actually "stark white." Any blue/purple/violet/"rainbow" at the cut-off areas is purely a by-product of the optics, and what you, as the on-looker sees in this respect is also mainly attributable to such optics.

Also, using the argument of "If xenon lighting is such a bad idea then, why do bmw acura and the rest of them keep putting them in there oem !!??" is not one that holds much weight, in terms of true science.

There's many reasons, aside from "seeing better," that currently makes "Xenon" lighting - HID lighting - a necessary part of both high-end automobiles and/or high-tech automobiles.

For the latter, HID lighting can offer certain advantages when it comes to power-drain and the needs of the vehicle's electrical system.

For the former, HID lighting is now almost seen as being "required" simply via a marketingperceived-value standpoint. Any up-scale vehicle without a factory HID system is seen as lacking for this option, no matter how well the factory-chosen incandescent system performs (and, in some cases, makes for a true "no-need" situation for HIDs).

Even now, there are certain technical issues with HIDs that makes them far from ideal under the almost infinitely varying road-conditions that can present - both to the driver of the vehicle itself (i.e. extreme foreground flooding, harsher color-temperatures) as well as the drivers of other vehicles (glare).

What is promising about HID lighting is that unlike halogen incandescents, which have more or less reached "the end of its road," there is still much to be engineered and improved upon with HIDs, which itself is why more and more vehicles are being equipped with them.

ahmadr
09-21-2007, 10:11 AM
If xenon lighting is such a bad idea then, why do bmw acura and the rest of them keep putting them in there oem !!??

I have 10,000 bulbs with ballasts and there sickly bright ... But then half the cars on the road have these bulbs running as well so, must be soemthing about xenon! 8) ....
There are many advantages (and some disadvantages) to Xenon lighting. For example, they are more energy efficient, brighter, and last much longer. However, their color temperature is NOT a safety advantage.

But the main point here is Xenon bulbs must only be used in reflectors designed for Xenon bulbs, and vice versa. Otherwise the beam will get messed up:



This diagram shows the very different characteristics of the filament vs. the arc:
http://www.torque.net/~dastern/Photometry/filamentarc.jpg
When designing the optics (lens and/or reflector) for a lamp, the characteristics of the light source are *the* driving factor around which everything else must be engineered. If you go and change the light source, you've done the equivalent of putting on somebody else's eyeglasses: You can probably make them fit on your face OK, but you won't see properly.


The correct way do do a conversion is to buy OEM housings DESIGNED FOR XENON.

JDS
10-25-2007, 04:14 PM
For the former, HID lighting is now almost seen as being "required" simply via a marketingperceived-value standpoint. Any up-scale vehicle without a factory HID system is seen as lacking for this option, no matter how well the factory-chosen incandescent system performs (and, in some cases, makes for a true "no-need" situation for HIDs).

Even now, there are certain technical issues with HIDs that makes them far from ideal under the almost infinitely varying road-conditions that can present - both to the driver of the vehicle itself (i.e. extreme foreground flooding, harsher color-temperatures) as well as the drivers of other vehicles (glare).You make an interesting point here...and while you're right, I don't think it's because of any flaw in xenon lighting. A high-quality OEM xenon lighting system, operating at 4300K color temperature, should outperform even the best halogens in any situation.

The real reason why HIDs can be unnecessary is that many people just don't NEED to outperform halogens. My VW has possibly the worst halogens of any car I've driven, and I'd love to get HIDs just because they would be cool to have and would look better...but, unless the price drops to a more trivial level (like the $300 range), I'm not getting them, simply because 99.9% of the time, my night driving is done in very brightly-lit areas. The only function that my headlights really serve is to make my car more visible to other drivers.

HOWEVER, I live in urban South Florida. If I lived in Wyoming or something, I would have put HIDs in quite a while ago...but that's just it. Lots of people live in South Florida. Nobody lives in Wyoming.

KnightHawk
11-10-2007, 12:10 PM
There are disadvantages and advantages of halogen and HID headlights I'll name a few.

The advantage halogen over HID is that it projects light farther away than HID in low beam and cheaper bulbs. Disadvantages of halogen is heat build up and more reflection from headlight in bad weather conditions like rain, fog and snow.

The advantage of HID is a razor sharp vertical cut off beam, good lighting in bad weather condition and runs cooler than halogen. Disadvantages are, bulbs costs more and does not project light far enough than halogen designed headlight housing. OEM HID headlight housing has a auto level control or manual level control to prevent blinding effect of the headlights towards in coming traffic.

Most importantly, headlights with halogen housing retrofitted with HID bulbs causes more glare, blinding effect because the housing is not designed for it - has poor vertical cut off pattern and no auto level or manual level control. As a matter of fact, it blinds in coming vehicles specially when the vehicle is loaded. In fact, it is illegal to retrofit halogen housing headlights with HID bulbs.

TSi+WRX
11-10-2007, 02:02 PM
There's some inaccuracies here, and I'll try to address them all in a logical format - please excuse me, however, if my reply seems somewhat disjointed, as sticking to the formatting from your post makes such replies somewhat difficult (it's not your fault - it's just that it makes the configuration of the replies a bit awkward). :)


The advantage halogen over HID is that it projects light farther away than HID in low beam

Actually, this is not something that can be pinned to just the HID vs. halogen difference. Instead, this is much more an issue of the optics involved - i.e. the reflector as well as the actual optical assemblies, such as the focusing lens, etc.

A great example here can be had just with standard flashlights. The respected tactical flashlight maker SureFire has several products in their lineup which come with a "standard" reflector assembly, and an added-cost "TurboHead" option. The latter provides a larger and "deeper" reflector, which changes the physical "throw" (think "distance") and beam-pattern to provide more distance/penetration, while using still the same bulb.



Disadvantages of halogen is heat build up...

This is typically viewed as a technical disadvantage as it is a sign of how much energy is wasted - however, in practical use, it actually provides a big advantage under snowy/icy conditions. Under such conditions, most halogen-incandescent systems produce enough heat to effect "self clearing," even enough to heat the now near-ubiquitous cosmetic/aero "overlens" that's seen on most mid-grade and up automobiles.

Typically, HID systems will require the aid of a dedicated headlamp wiper/washer setup to effect such clearing, since they do not produce sufficient heat. (Aside: this is also a noted worry of LED-based automotive lighting, particularly in the critical area of tail-lighting.)



...and more reflection from headlight in bad weather conditions like rain, fog and snow.

Actually, this is an area where most current experts would consider halogen-incandescents to fare relatively well - their typically "yellower" lighting color actually tends to give most drivers a subjective sense of being able to perceive contrast as well as edge-delineation better than with "whiter" color light.

Unfortunately, this is an area where there needs to be further research, as current studies also show that this subjective viewing comfort is offset by the fact that whiter light (within the color temperature of OEM HID setups, between 4300 to 4600 Kelvin) will actually offer better penetration under such conditions, and also that subjective driver visual comfort offered by yellower (including selective yellow) systems may actually contribute indirectly to faster-than-safe speeds under such inclimate conditions.



The advantage of HID is a razor sharp vertical cut off beam...

Here, I will address only this concern, as the others (inclimate weather usage, physical bulb/housing temperature, light throw/pattern) have already been covered above.

In terms of physical beam pattern and cut-off, this is again highly dependent on the other optical considerations of the light housing - i.e. reflector, lens, etc.

You will find that a properly engineered halogen-incandescent "projector" system can offer the same crisp cut-off and highly defined beam pattern as can be achieved with OEM HIDs.

Again, here, it's not the light source that's so much the problem as sub-par optics - which itself can affect both incandescents and HIDs equally, based on the OEM design/engineering, styling, as well as cost considerations.



Disadvantages are, bulbs costs more

The issue of cost is one that's rather hard to argue.

While the typical OEM - and even most good-quality aftermarket - HID bulb, ballast, and ignitor assemblies can last many times the duration of even the best quality (when run-time is considered as the hallmark of such "quality") halogen-incandescent bulbs, the cost of the latter as routine replacements can quickly add-up, particularly over the lifespan of the typical vehicle on-road today.



OEM HID headlight housing has a auto level control or manual level control to prevent blinding effect of the headlights towards in coming traffic.

Unfortunately, even as of today, such systems remain "reactionary." There's no anticipation of the conditions ahead - the light only reacts to the here and now.

As such, a certain amount of glare is still unfortunately present.

Still, to be fair, it should be noted that most such perceived glare issues from oncoming traffic still come about due to the relative novelty of HID systems today. We still get plenty of the "hey, those lights look different!" issues, whereby the oncoming driver actually unknowingly focuses-in on the headlights, and is not exercising proper night-time driving/visual habits when approaching an oncoming vehicle.



Most importantly, headlights with halogen housing retrofitted with HID bulbs causes more glare, blinding effect because the housing is not designed for it - has poor vertical cut off pattern and no auto level or manual level control. As a matter of fact, it blinds in coming vehicles specially when the vehicle is loaded. In fact, it is illegal to retrofit halogen housing headlights with HID bulbs.

While this is definitely a concern, I think that the vocabulary you used needs to be clarified a bit.

In this area, most hobbyists will term "retrofits" only and strictly to the physical construct of fully retrofitting OEM HID systems into a pre-existing headlight housing. This kind of retrofit work actually entails the use of not just the bulb-ignitor-ballast pieces, but also the critical optical assemblies surrounding the bulb (i.e. reflector, lens, etc.), which is actually what defines much of the beam pattern and throw concerns (including glare) that are spoken of.

With such retrofits, the effort is typically so extreme and the project so comprehensive that *everything* about the lighting is actually further improved over what is seen with factory-OEM HID systems. These enthusiasts do not just blindly retrofit the critical components, but they also work to insure their optimization - often achieving much better than the factory throw/pattern, while minimizing glare to oncoming vehicles, and at the same time even enhance visual aesthetics (i.e. specific tailoring of the "waste" beam cut-off areas to give certain colorations).

What you - and most others who are lighting and/or auto-enthusiasts - are referring to here, and find offensive, is the improper/illegal "plug-and-play" kits that include only a bulb, ballast, and ignitor (and the necesasry wiring harness, in some cases). These setups change only, essentially, the halogen-incandescent bulb of the factory vehicle to an aftermarket HID-bulb, utilizing an adaptor base to fit into the original factory incandescent light housing. Paired as-such, the factory halogen-incandescent's optics offer a mismatch to the HID's, thus causing most of the trouble.

[As another aside, it should be noted that there are exceptions to this case as well - with some vehicles that are equipped with exceptionally well-designed incandescent-halogen projector housings actually able to, marginally, receive an "improper" HID "plug-and-play" kit and offer lighting that is, in output, a tremendous improvement over the factory incandescent setup, while still maintaining enough cut-off shielding to avoid insulting oncoming drivers. However, these kinds of setups are truly a rare exception to the case.]

:)

I hope this helps to clear-up some of yours - and others' - concerns.

In any case, I hope that you'll get a more complete picture of our current understanding of automotive lighting by reading the following resources:

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/ - Stern is a noted and respected expert in this area, and his website is a treasure-chest of information. Just keep in-mind, though, that since his commercial business tailors towards upgrade of halogen-incandescent lighting, and thus, he tends to paint a more bleak picture of HIDs than is totally fair. Also, some of his information is not truly up-to-date (re: below). Still, it serves as an excellent introduction into this area.

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/tran...p?section=13.1 and http://hdl.handle.net/2027.42/49453 - This is a great collection of up-to-date automotive lighting research, and should serve you well in terms of background knowledge. Here, you'll see that the picture for HIDs start to come into play a bit better. This is hard science.

Finally, to even-out your knowledge base on the other end of the spectrum, I recommend hitting up HID-retrofit enthusiast sites such as HID-Planet, and to go through their more informative posts, in order to gain a better understanding of the true benefits that an HID system can allow. Here, just be careful to note that these are HID enthusiasts, so their picture of HIDs may be rather more rosy. I see it as a good way to balance the less-than-fully-objective areas presented by Stern.

KnightHawk
11-10-2007, 05:18 PM
Actually, this is not something that can be pinned to just the HID vs. halogen difference. Instead, this is much more an issue of the optics involved - i.e. the reflector as well as the actual optical assemblies, such as the focusing lens, etc. That is true. But what i'm saying here is that HID housing is not the same as halogen housing. In general, HID housing has better vertical cut off and has to have auto level control or manual level control. I think a flashlight comparison is not to be compared because their optics does not have the same purpose for driving.

Actually, this is an area where most current experts would consider halogen-incandescents to fare relatively well - their typically "yellower" lighting color actually tends to give most drivers a subjective sense of being able to perceive contrast as well as edge-delineation better than with "whiter" color light.

Unfortunately, this is an area where there needs to be further research, as current studies also show that this subjective viewing comfort is offset by the fact that whiter light (within the color temperature of OEM HID setups, between 4300 to 4600 Kelvin) will actually offer better penetration under such conditions, and also that subjective driver visual comfort offered by yellower (including selective yellow) systems may actually contribute indirectly to faster-than-safe speeds under such inclimate conditionsIn a way the color difference works where you can see better in hallogen type housing such as fog lights where the housing design has a very good vertical cut off in bad weather conditions. A good example of this too is changing the standard halogen bulb with a 4300K or 5000k bulb(non-HID). Here you can see how bad the lighting is in bad weather conditions because of the housing design that does not have good vertical cut off. Yellowish color is only effective when it is about the 2000K range. But standard halogen bulb is still in the 3000K range where you still get a good amount of reflection. A good example is the toyota sienna halogen vs. HID headlights. Vehicle was positioned at 15 feet from a white painted wall. You get more glare from the halogen headlight compared to the the HID headlight even though the halogen had a yellowish color.

You will find that a properly engineered halogen-incandescent "projector" system can offer the same crisp cut-off and highly defined beam pattern as can be achieved with OEM HIDs. That is true as far as cut off is concerned but does not address the problem when the vehicle is loaded.

Unfortunately, even as of today, such systems remain "reactionary." There's no anticipation of the conditions ahead - the light only reacts to the here and now.

As such, a certain amount of glare is still unfortunately present.
That is true but can be worse if there is no auto level or manual level control. It's better to have a temporary or "reactionary" glare than having a permanent one. If you think about it, why do OEM HID housing/design have it in the first place?

In foggy or rainy weather, i can see better driving my HID equipped headlight than my halogen headlight. The difference is so big because i get more reflection with my halogen headlight than my HID headlight. Standard halogen bulb is possibly around the 3000K(guess) but not good enough to penetrate rain or fog and still get a good amount of reflection. Yellow light that is in the 2000K with good vertical cut off is the best for bad weather conditions because it decreases the amount of reflection and has better penetration.

What i'm saying is that, HID equiped vehicles with 4300K to 5000K can still compensate for the difference because of the housing design in bad weather conditions compared to the standard halogen bulb housing even though it is a little yellowish but not yellow enough to have a good punch through in bad weather conditions because of reflections you get back.

TSi+WRX
11-10-2007, 07:08 PM
That is true. But what i'm saying here is that HID housing is not the same as halogen housing.

Correct. It's not necessarily that the housing is different - that comes more from having just different vehicles - but rather, that the optics are designed differently to suit the characteristics of the lamp (halogen-incandescent versus HID) itself.



In general, HID housing has better vertical cut off ...

With most reflector/sealed-beam type conventional halogens, this comparison is true, but against today's popular "projector" systems, it's a toss-up. With the better projectors seen on some vehicles, the cut-off can be just as sharply defined.



I think a flashlight comparison is not to be compared because their optics does not have the same purpose for driving.

Not necessarily - optics is optics, and what holds true in one case will hold true in the other.

Look at specifically designed for-purpose "driving lights" versus other auxiliary lights (i.e. designed for-purpose "fog lights") or even "low-beam" pattern lights - the purpose-made driving lights tend to have much larger as well a deeper reflector bowls - this is very much akin to the flashlight example I cited, with the "TurboHead" units offering greater throw/penetration. Translated to "driving use," as with the specifically tailored "driving lights," we see a narrowing of the beam throw combined with a farther throw for distance, which is precisely what "driving lights" are supposed to do.


In a way the color difference works where you can see better in hallogen type housing such as fog lights where the housing design has a very good vertical cut off in bad weather conditions.

:?:

I'm not sure what you mean.....

You've stated, yourself, that HIDs typically confer better cut-off, but here, you're saying that the halogens have better cut-off?

I think what you're trying to say here is that most fog-lights are, currently, still halogen-incandescent based, and utilize "selective yellow" coloration.

However, as you can see in the latest research papers, these old beliefs truly no longer holds water - indeed, what we've perceived as such benefits from selective yellow lighting is just that, very subjective perceived differences -> and that current, sophisticated, research points to the fact that in terms of true objective performance, the "yellower" lighting offers no true benefit, and may actually be producing some harm.

As for the cut-off, again, this is more dependent on optics than anything else. A properly designed "fog light" can quite easily be made to use HID technology. The beam pattern, including cut-off, is defined again by the optics of the system, not solely by the lighting source. Indeed, the optics are much more the responsible party for this, with the source being secondary.



A good example of this too is changing the standard halogen bulb with a 4300K or 5000k bulb(non-HID). Here you can see how bad the lighting is in bad weather conditions because of the housing design that does not have good vertical cut off. Yellowish color is only effective when it is about the 2000K range. But standard halogen bulb is still in the 3000K range where you still get a good amount of reflection. A good example is the toyota sienna halogen vs. HID headlights. Vehicle was positioned at 15 feet from a white painted wall. You get more glare from the halogen headlight compared to the the HID headlight even though the halogen had a yellowish color.

Again, I've addressed some of the "color" issues above - pread the above-cited papers (from actual scientific studies), you'll see that the past beliefs of "selective yellow" is becoming disproven.

I know that I "think" that selective-yellow is better for me under such conditions. I've run (and still run Narva Golds) in all of my dedicated fog-light setups in the past - I'm just now starting to experiment with going the other direction, and seeing if perhaps my eyes really aren't deceiving me.

A part of the problem with your hypothetical test situation above is that you're simply manipulating the color temperature of the test - increasing the "blue" from 4300 to 5000 K. This, in the particular vehicle you cite, may indeed cause more glare - but it's more from the fault of the inherent optics of that system than its translation into HID, a comparison of which simply cannot be made. A properly designed - and yes, not all OEM makes are equal, just as there are better and worse OEM HID designs, the same thing can be said here, too, for traditional incandescents - halogen housing should not offer any more or less glare under such conditions.

[Aside - what may come as a surprise to you, and it did to me as well as many other lighting enthusiasts (automotive and otherwise), is that in one of the papers cited above, it seems that there is currently an effort by some of the respected automotive lighting engineers to actually use selective blue to enhance foul-weather as well as night-vision, which is something that, until now, was thought to be totally opposite. This stresses the importance for us laymen to keep up-to-date with the current research.]


That is true as far as cut off is concerned but does not address the problem when the vehicle is loaded.....

That is true but can be worse if there is no auto level or manual level control. It's better to have a temporary or "reactionary" glare than having a permanent one. If you think about it, why do OEM HID housing/design have it in the first place?

^ Agreed, this is clearly a case where the technology is still developing.

With the advent of the HIRs, traditional incandescent technology is seemingly reaching an end-point. However, as you well pointed out (and as I've stressed many times in the past), the technology for HIDs (and other forms of lighting) is still developing and being perfected. That's the main difference.

We'll continue to see HIDs evolving and getting better and better - with traditional incandescents? not so much.



In foggy or rainy weather, i can see better driving my HID equipped headlight than my halogen headlight. The difference is so big because i get more reflection with my halogen headlight than my HID headlight. Standard halogen bulb is possibly around the 3000K(guess) but not good enough to penetrate rain or fog and still get a good amount of reflection. Yellow light that is in the 2000K with good vertical cut off is the best for bad weather conditions because it decreases the amount of reflection and has better penetration.

What you're perceiving with your HIDs is not because of its inherent "betterness" :) over traditional halogen incandescents. Instead, it is based more on the design optics of your HID system, which, in your particular case, is likely superior to the halogens that you're comparing it to.

Again, don't subscribe to the old "selective yellow" belief just because it's been around so long. Read those papers that I've cited, and you'll see why.

I am, myself, trying to "unconvince" me that selective yellow isn't truly better under foul-weather conditions. Since so much of this has to do with subjective driving comfort (versus true measured performance), I suspect that what will finally boil-down will be highly dependent on personal choice, regardless of the actual science/performance behind it.

Regardless, my fellow selective-yellow lover, I highly encourage you to read those papers, it's illuminating...no pun intended. 8)

[Aside - BTW, no, selective yellow does not offer, nor has ever been regarded to do so even by enthusiasts, "more penetration," under foul-weather situations. Its enhancement comes purely from offering you, the driver, more visual comfort (a study done by a respected tactical-flashlight use training firm - and keep in mind here that this kind of flashlight use is truly LIFE OR DEATH, in that a mis-identification of the target/threat is a truly death-defining situation cited that amber/hay-hue is very benefitial under low-light, stress, situations, since we've been bred and evolved, for eons, to operate at-night by natural "firelight") by enhancing depth perception and edge delineation. However, this kind of benefit comes at SIGNIFICANT decrease in actual "lumens-on-road," i.e. the amount of light cast - and has been proven, scientifically and repeatedly, to offer less distance/throw than true "white" light.]



What i'm saying is that, HID equiped vehicles with 4300K to 5000K can still compensate for the difference because of the housing design in bad weather conditions compared to the standard halogen bulb housing even though it is a little yellowish but not yellow enough to have a good punch through in bad weather conditions because of reflections you get back.

4300K is just barely tinged with yellow - 4600K up is "stark white" to just ever so slightly "blueish" tinged.

The benefits you see are purely related to optics. It's also possible that the foreground flooding you see with HIDs is also giving you more perceived immediate-range visual comfort under such foul-weather conditions.

KnightHawk
11-10-2007, 09:51 PM
TSi+WRX, sorry if i'm not being clear and i think you misunderstood me.

Projector housing with halogen bulbs are made the same way with HID bulbs therefore there is no difference in vertical cut off other than the bulb itself.

What i meant by housing is for reflector headlight housing - free form. Sealed headlights use reflectors but does not use the reflectors of the housing to direct lighting but rather uses the lens to disperse lighting where it wants to be. Most newer headlight halogen housing other than projector housing are free form. Meaning it does not need the lens to disperse lighting but rather uses the reflector to guide the lighting pattern. When i said housing, it includes the reflector design and bulb cover design - headlight assembly in a non-projector headlight.


Quote:
In a way the color difference works where you can see better in hallogen type housing such as fog lights where the housing design has a very good vertical cut off in bad weather conditions.


Question

I'm not sure what you mean.....

You've stated, yourself, that HIDs typically confer better cut-off, but here, you're saying that the halogens have better cut-off?

I think what you're trying to say here is that most fog-lights are, currently, still halogen-incandescent based, and utilize "selective yellow" coloration.

You have to put in context. I said "fog lights". A true fog light has a horizontal cut off. I never stated it as a low beam light.

A part of the problem with your hypothetical test situation above is that you're simply manipulating the color temperature of the test - increasing the "blue" from 4300 to 5000 K. This, in the particular vehicle you cite, may indeed cause more glare - but it's more from the fault of the inherent optics of that system than its translation into HID, a comparison of which simply cannot be made. A properly designed - and yes, not all OEM makes are equal, just as there are better and worse OEM HID designs, the same thing can be said here, too, for traditional incandescents - halogen housing should not offer any more or less glare under such conditions

It won't make any difference as far as glare is concerned using a 4300K and upgrading it to 5000K in a OEM HID housing. That's what i did on my vehicle. What we did in this test was to determine if a halogen housing (free form reflector housing) particularly the toyota sienna will cause more glare when parked 15 feet away from a white painted wall vs. an OEM HID housing(free form reflector housing) which resulted to more glaring from a non-HID housing because of the reflector and bulb cover design. I think we are misunderstanding each other here.

What you're perceiving with your HIDs is not because of its inherent "betterness" Smile over traditional halogen incandescents. Instead, it is based more on the design optics of your HID system, which, in your particular case, is likely superior to the halogens that you're comparing it to. I agree. In general, halogen reflector design in non-projector lights cause more glare.

Yellow lighting makes a difference in overall performance in bad weather condition. This can be seen when using a PIAA driving light with ion crystal vs non ion crystal with the same model housing. Lighting performance is the same in both but the difference is the reflected lighting effect you get. You get more reflected light from a less yellow light source thereby decreasing visibility.

The benefits you see are purely related to optics. It's also possible that the foreground flooding you see with HIDs is also giving you more perceived immediate-range visual comfort under such foul-weather conditions I agree.

Silverstreak98
11-11-2007, 01:53 AM
Wow lots of reading guys.........but good discussion.

Having done a HID retrofit myself and done some reading I tend to agree with Tsi+WRX a little more, but both of you present good points.

TSi+WRX
11-11-2007, 06:38 AM
TSi+WRX, sorry if i'm not being clear and i think you misunderstood me.

No no, it's OK. :) I think that we both agree on many things, but that the wording here is just confusing things - I have a feeling that if we got together "live," we'd totally mesh. :) Darned "Errornet!" :lol:



Projector housing with halogen bulbs are made the same way with HID bulbs therefore there is no difference in vertical cut off other than the bulb itself.

Actually, no, that's not true at all.

The optics for an HID system *significantly* differ from that of a conventional halogen-incandescent. Everything from reflector design to lens optics to even the cut-of-shield design is impacted, and in most cases, significantly changed.

This is a known fact for anyone who has done true HID retrofits, and is in large part why an improper "plug-and-play" kit - using an HID bulb/lamp shoved into a pre-existing conventional halogen-incandescent housing (i.e. with halogen-incandescent optics) will cause, to some degree (anything from barely noticeable/concerning, to outright unacceptable), the offending oncoming-vehicle glare you spoke about above, as well as the lack of proper throw/beam-pattern.

Check Daniel Stern's website above - you'll see very clearly the physical differences between incandescent bulbs and HID lamps. Physically, these two different bulb/lamp formats produce light differently - and this critical physical difference must be addressed by the optics of the surrounding system, what you term to be the "housing," encompassing both the reflector, lens, shields, etc.

It's these critical factors that *must* be addressed any time a halogen-incandescent is switched for HID. If your specific vehicle, in OEM format, somehow uses the *same* critical elements for both lamps, then it's either a sub-par design in and of itself, or, alternatively, your OEM manufacturer is using a bypass via moving/repositioning the critically different bulb-element within each setup, to provide optimal results.

One or the other *must* be changed in order to address those critical issues of glare, cut-off, and beam pattern/throw. As soon as you have physically opened comparable HID versus halogen setups, you'll immediately see these internal differences, which may or may not be noticeable from just a cursory external exam.

[Aside - as a personal example, my BL/BP-chassis Legacy uses what many would consider *excellent* (performance-wise) standard halogen-incandescent low-beam lighting. However, a simple "plug-and-play" kit, retrofitting the standard halogen bulb with an HID-lamp using an adaptor base, will return with only marginally-acceptable results in terms of cut-off and glare (the former of which can be improved via slight modification to the factory halogen's cut-off plate). Those issues can only be fully addressed via a full-out retrofit of the proper optics.]



You have to put in context. I said "fog lights". A true fog light has a horizontal cut off. I never stated it as a low beam light.

Ah, I see (no pun intended) what you mean.

However, a lot of that still no longer holds water (and believe me, up until a few weeks ago, I shared your same thoughts regarding the fogs) -> give those research papers a read, they now have quantitative data that overturns the old, conventional "by-Hoyle" beliefs that we've been so ingrained upon.



It won't make any difference as far as glare is concerned using a 4300K and upgrading it to 5000K in a OEM HID housing. That's what i did on my vehicle. What we did in this test was to determine if a halogen housing (free form reflector housing) particularly the toyota sienna will cause more glare when parked 15 feet away from a white painted wall vs. an OEM HID housing(free form reflector housing) which resulted to more glaring from a non-HID housing because of the reflector and bulb cover design. I think we are misunderstanding each other here.

Ah, now that makes more sense. Finally, I'm gettig what you're saying! :)

In this manner, I'm inclinded to agree - the optics of the system were not changed, and only the color-temperature of the HIDs were.

I agree, both subjectively and from personal-experience as well as from the conclusions that the current research data suggests, what you're seeing is indeed "real" and "true." :)



Yellow lighting makes a difference in overall performance in bad weather condition. This can be seen when using a PIAA driving light with ion crystal vs non ion crystal with the same model housing. Lighting performance is the same in both but the difference is the reflected lighting effect you get. You get more reflected light from a less yellow light source thereby decreasing visibility.

Again, read those research papers before you stick with this assertion.

And again, trust me, I also thought this way prior to reading those papers. However, they were most illuminating - current science and research methods is overturning old knowledge.

Honestly, what you're seeing with the selective-yellow is a *subjective* improvement, specifically in terms of depth perception and edge delineation, both of which are crucial for driver comfort/confidence under such foul-weather conditions. I, too, share your personal preference in this manner.

However, current research (don't believe what's spoon-fed to us by the lamp manufacturers - remember that their agenda is simply to make money, they have an undeniable bias and conflict-of-interest in reporting proper data, and these scientific papers prove it; PIAA, while tremendously respected in the industry for the performance of their lighting systms, is far from above such practices - look simply at their ridiculous "55W = 85W" claims, which goes against all basic scientific principles) points the other way - that the increase in comfort comes at a severe trade-off in terms of true light distance penetration/throw (we were aware of this trade-off already, even as far as just a decade ago), and that this trade-off is actually dangerous both because it cuts forward visibility (which is actually what's most lacking under such situations) but also tends to, by raising subjective driver comfort/confidence, also increase road-speeds to a level which is inappropriate for such conditions.

A few of us vehicle lighting enthusiasts/hobbyists are actually thinking about revising our foul-weather lighting setups to overcome the now quantitatively noted deficits of the previously-believed, as well as to also work-in our own personal preference (i.e. our liking for selective yellow).

The current train of thought, from having reviewed the data and conclusions from such scientific research papers, is to utilize a narrower-beam fog-light setup (or, alternatively, a wider-beam driving-light setup, in any case, this would be somewhere between a 50 to 75-degree arc horizontal dispersal), mount it co-axial to the main low-beam housing (again, current research suggests that traditional mounting/placement of fog-lights close-to-ground is actually a mistake, and drastically compromises light performance for what was "believed" by-convention, without any hard data, to be a reduction in reflected glare to the vehicle driver), and to use a high-power lamp (again, here, current scientific research is pushing-over the old, by-convention belief that in fog, a lower-power light is better) of selective-yellow coloration (to suit our own subjective comfort preferences) to supplement and overcome the deficiency in absolute light output (i.e. "lumens on road").

:) 8)

-------------------

PS:

I'm about to give the above "new data" scenario a try. I have a set of aftermarket fog/driving lamps (dual illumination, with two separate optics assemblies) that will make this possible. There are some current concerns.

Although I could physically fit this lamp housing into my upper grill - remembering that one specific objective here is to co-locate the auxiliary lights axially with the headlights, as suggested by the data from the latest papers - I will need to datalog my vehicle to insure that cooling performance (both coolant temperature - for the well-being of the vehicle - as well as "intake air temperature," which, for my vehicle, is a critical determinant of performance) is not affected. This is a minor concern, since I routinely datalog my vehicle already - and also isn't as much of a worry because I have auxiliary instrumentation in my vehicle which can live-monitor, as well as raise a warning signal, when such parameters go out-of-bounds.

The need to fit these lights into the upper grill also comes from the array of jammers I've positioned in the lower grill of my vehicle (dual LI, dual LPP, and ZR3). Since the diode-based jammers are known to not play well with high ambient heat, this factor also precludes such a fitment. But since one specific aim is to get the lights higher up, this is thus a non-issue. :)

KnightHawk
11-11-2007, 07:27 AM
This is a known fact for anyone who has done true HID retrofits, and is in large part why an improper "plug-and-play" kit - using an HID bulb/lamp shoved into a pre-existing conventional halogen-incandescent housing (i.e. with halogen-incandescent optics) will cause, to some degree (anything from barely noticeable/concerning, to outright unacceptable), the offending oncoming-vehicle glare you spoke about above, as well as the lack of proper throw/beam-pattern. Reason for that is the size of the bulb. HID bulb is twice a long as halogen bulbs. If the HID bulb can be as short as the halogen bulb, you will have the same beam pattern. :wink: Plus there is no auto level control which makes a big difference.

The current train of thought, from having reviewed the data and conclusions from such scientific research papers, is to utilize a narrower-beam fog-light setup (or, alternatively, a wider-beam driving-light setup, in any case, this would be somewhere between a 50 to 75-degree arc horizontal dispersal), mount it co-axial to the main low-beam housing (again, current research suggests that traditional mounting/placement of fog-lights close-to-ground is actually a mistake, and drastically compromises light performance for what was "believed" by-convention, without any hard data, to be a reduction in reflected glare to the vehicle driver), and to use a high-power lamp (again, here, current scientific research is pushing-over the old, by-convention belief that in fog, a lower-power light is better) of selective-yellow coloration (to suit our own subjective comfort preferences) to supplement and overcome the deficiency in absolute light output (i.e. "lumens on road"). In some ways I tend to disagree with the narrow beam fog light based on experience. I like to have a wider beam pattern on my fog lights for better awareness because the distance is the same as far as throw of the beam. I do agree that placement of the fog light is critical - higher is better(taller individuals can see farther than shorter individuals in crowded places). The problem when mounting their fog lights either in a lower vehicle or a higher vehicle is, most installers don't test it and follow the S.A.E. standard. The critical part here is aiming the fog lights properly. If you follow the aiming STD. used by S.A.E.(Society of Automotive Engineers) particularly the J583, you will have no problem based on experience. I read some of Daniel Stern's aiming method and noticed(i can be wrong) his data were the same as S.A.E.'s aiming method and may have copied it from them. He does not say where he got it in his website.

TSi+WRX
11-12-2007, 06:06 AM
Reason for that is the size of the bulb. HID bulb is twice a long as halogen bulbs. If the HID bulb can be as short as the halogen bulb, you will have the same beam pattern. :wink: Plus there is no auto level control which makes a big difference.

Yes, partially, physical size does have to do with this - but also, the burn characteristics of the two different light sources also must be accounted for (again, reference Daniel Stern's "Tech" pages, you'll see this clearly represented).

The leveling controls present another level of complication to this issue, but even with such controls, there's still no way to properly compensate for the amount of forward glare that an improper "plug-and-play" kit (particularly when paired with an already sub-par reflector/optics assembly for even the halogen-incandescent that the kit is to be used with) would produce - sure, you could use the leveling adjustments (or even outright physically hard-aim) to get a reasonable "cut-off" (and here, we're speaking in tremendously loose terms, since that particular pattern would likely be extremely feathered and un-defined) but this improper setup would virtually cast most of its light straight-down. :)



In some ways I tend to disagree with the narrow beam fog light based on experience. I like to have a wider beam pattern on my fog lights for better awareness because the distance is the same as far as throw of the beam.


Subjectively, from a personal-preference stance, I agree completely with you.

That's my preference as well - and in the past, I've always chosen auxiliary lighting, for "fog/foul weather" services, as such. A "flat and wide" pattern gives me the most subjective visual comfort as well, and in the vast majority of my typical on-road situations under such weather conditions, there are specific uses for which such a beam pattern is truly ideal (i.e. curb/lane-delineation with "blackened" roadway treatment residue or with the "salt white" look of fresh roadway treatment).

Since I tend to slow to match the foul conditions, I would think that it should make no difference, in terms of total driving safety (for me), that I don't get the same penetration/distance as I would see with a whiter/narrower setup, but I am still hard-pressed not to at least give the new findings a try, particularly as the science is so well-thought.

I guess I'm just afraid that my eyes are deceiving me, that's all. :) Having been involved in the field of ophthalmology for about 10 years, as well as having had an interest in both automotive lighting ( a long time ago, I actually won an award from the SAE for automotive headlight glare reduction - go figure....I never realized that my personal interests would one-day wrap-around so neatly on what was, at one time, my actual studies :lol: ) as well as tactical flashlights, I know well that in many cases, our eyes play tricks on us, and I just want to be certain that I am not letting subjective "driving comfort/confidence" take too much precedence in my setup. :oops:



I do agree that placement of the fog light is critical - higher is better(taller individuals can see farther than shorter individuals in crowded places). The problem when mounting their fog lights either in a lower vehicle or a higher vehicle is, most installers don't test it and follow the S.A.E. standard. The critical part here is aiming the fog lights properly. If you follow the aiming STD. used by S.A.E.(Society of Automotive Engineers) particularly the J583, you will have no problem based on experience. I read some of Daniel Stern's aiming method and noticed(i can be wrong) his data were the same as S.A.E.'s aiming method and may have copied it from them. He does not say where he got it in his website.

I'm inclined to agree with this, too. The SAE standards have served me well so-far, but it seems like, as with anything, there remains room for improvement - it would be fun having a larger vehicle to try ever-increasing mounting heights and test-out the observations and data posed by those new papers. :)

KnightHawk
11-12-2007, 08:29 AM
Totally agree. :wink:

TSi+WRX
11-12-2007, 08:49 AM
^ The more I re-read and the more I think about it, I believe we were always in-agreement, brother. :) I truly think that this is yet another case of the Errornet making us essentially communicate on parallel planes. :lol: