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languy99
11-18-2008, 01:27 PM
Ok, I was searching on the net for a film that might be able to be applied to the headlight of a vehicle instead of veil. The reason is because veil is hard to apply and from what I can tell does not have a very long life. I found a company that is supposed to make such a film. The company is called CPFilms, I have contacted someone there but I had to leave a message so I don't know if they are still making the film or not.

The patent information is as follows:

PET window film coated with a 6-micron layer containing 30% to 60% by weight infrared-absorbing nanoparticles retains heat while transmitting (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/transmitting) visible light. CPFilms in Martinsville (http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Martinsville) Va., began producing IR-absorbing films three years ago for car windows in the Far East. It has since extended the technology to its Vista architectural window films with different levels of visible-light transmission. CPFilms' parent company, Solutia, has patents on IR-absorbing layers of lanthanum hexaboride (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Lanthanum+hexaboride), antimony-tin oxide (http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/oxide), and indium-tin oxide. Use of these metals in nanoparticle form is CPFilms' development (U.S. Patent 6663950, 2003). Tel: (276) 627-3000 * CPFilms Inc. World's largest manufacturer of solar control and safety window films for commercial, residential and automotive applications. Precision Coatings on Film (http://www.cpfilms.com)

patent number 6663950 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=EL0NAAAAEBAJ&dq=6663950)

I have to try to find this stuff and if I can get my hands on it, it might be an alternative to veil for people who do not want to apply it. From looking at the patent it allows about 70% light output while absorbing at least 35% infreared light. Does anyone know what percentage infrared veil absords?

nickstath
11-18-2008, 03:50 PM
You are very lucky that you live in states.

languy99
11-18-2008, 06:47 PM
Ok, that lady I talked to gave me a call back, and she told me what product line to look at. I'll have to look at it tomorrow and maybe get some( you can get it at local stores). Maybe later in the year alpine or proudNMA and me can do some testing on it if I like how it looks and seems promising.

Also I have found another company that makes the film out of Canada, they report about 85% absorption of infrared at 900nm while having over 70% transmittance of visible light. I shot them and e-mail asking where I can buy it. I'll give them a call tomorrow about seeing if I can get my hands on some if they don't answer my e-mail.

languy99
11-19-2008, 09:00 AM
UPDATE:

I just talked to the company out of Canada, they are going to send me a sample of the film for testing. When I get it I can really do some testing and see how effective it is. If it is as good as they say it is, that would be great. Imagine covering your headlights in the stuff and not having to worry about how you brush it on or anything. And it should be much more durable.

It is interesting to me that no one seems interested in the film even though it could potentially be a great passive laser defense.

Cyberdemon
11-19-2008, 09:28 AM
My biggest concern for fim would be that it seems like it would probably only work in select situations.

1: Headlights without a lot of complex surfaces for the film to form over.

2: Headlights that were in excellent shape or almost new. If your headlights had some surface imperfections like rock chips, air bubbles would get caught underneath and there would be no way to get them out unless you figured out a way to fill the surface first.

My other big concern is the light transmission...even with bright HID's cutting down ~30% of your headlights IMO seems like it could have a pretty noticable impact. I see a lot of people with tinted headlights and tails (just for aesthetics) and it always seems the light output (like following them at night) is very diminished.

But if it was cheap, easy to install and easily removable it wouldn't be a bad deal.

languy99
11-19-2008, 09:43 AM
1. Use a heat gun, You could easily from it over the headlights.

2. For weathered lights I would first use the 3m headlight restoration kit (http://www.shop3m.com/60455033872.html), not only would it help with light output but also give you a perfect surface to put the film on.

Looking at the specs again for visible light (400-700nm) it looks light light output varies from 25-30% blockage. Think about car tint, when you get the lightest stuff, you are still blocking at least 50% of the light.

Another idea is had is to apply the film to a set of clear headlight covers. And if it works really good, I can actually get my hands on the dye that they use in the film and manufacture custom light covers for vehicles that can be built to block out just the 904nm laser.

But first off I want to get that sample and test it out.

languy99
11-19-2008, 10:07 AM
Ok, one more update, I just got a email back form the Canadian Company. They will ship out the sample. So I will have some information for you guys when I get it. :)

Stealth Stalker
11-19-2008, 03:54 PM
This is very promising! I too have concerns about getting it to form to complex contoured headlight housings, because that is exactly the boat I am in.

It does seem like this would be a potentially better option than Veil, in that it is longer lasting and more protective of the lens.

takeshi
11-19-2008, 06:39 PM
It is interesting to me that no one seems interested in the film even though it could potentially be a great passive laser defense.
It's not a lack of interest on my part so much as "Let's see it in action" and find out what the unforseen minuses are.

TSi+WRX
11-20-2008, 01:53 PM
Let us know how this turns out! :D This sounds most interesting - and promising!

---

lan, my current concern:

HIR , (H)alogen (I)nfra-(R)ed, headlight technology utilizes just that - the wasted heat, in the form of IR, to further increase the output of the bulb above that of conventional halogens.

My question, thus, is two-fold:

(1) Is this IR-film "one-way"

and

(2) If not - i.e. if it will trap heat within the headlamp housing - what the implications to this might be. Take, for example, the C6s, whose headlight housing's aero/protective/cosmetic "overlens" has been known to crack due to heat management issues.....

ahmadr
11-21-2008, 06:44 AM
From looking at the patent it allows about 70% light output while absorbing at least 35% infreared light. Does anyone know what percentage infrared veil absords?

The 3m Prestige 70 tint (combined with normal window glass on buildings) passes through 69% of visible light and only 3% of IR energy. And it is readily available:

http://www.radardetector.net/forums/veil/21641-6-diffusing-tape-vs-100-veil-reflection-night-shot-images-5.html#post242779

languy99
11-21-2008, 06:55 AM
There is a difference between rejection and absorption of the IR light. The 3m film rejects the light, the will actually make it look like a mirror to the laser gun. While the new film I have found actually absorbs the light.

ahmadr
11-21-2008, 07:03 AM
There is a difference between rejection and absorption of the IR light. The 3m film rejects the light, the will actually make it look like a mirror to the laser gun. While the new film I have found actually absorbs the light.

rejection = reflection + absorption

that said, since headlight covers are always slanted, I wouldn't care even if they are mirrored

Stealth Stalker
11-21-2008, 07:14 AM
...headlight covers are always slanted...
Not "always", but most of the time. Mustang light covers are as flat as a board. Surprising on a car built for speed.

Eloi
11-21-2008, 08:19 AM
''There is a difference between rejection and absorption of the IR light. The 3m film rejects the light, the will actually make it look like a mirror to the laser gun. While the new film I have found actually absorbs the light.''

I agree on that , the whole importance is the way the Ir
is eliminated , by absorbtion or rejection , the last
could be a worse cure. The ideal target from laser point of view
is a mirror.

Another point never discuss is the reflection
occuring at the interface air/plexiglass of the lens or film applied.
@ 900 nm the light particles are absorbed if the material
particles size match the light and transform this enrergy
input into heat .Also the chemical stucture will dictate
the reaction to ir : reject/absorb/let pass.

Military has those answers .:cool:

Who remember the 411 experiment/video ?

Cyberdemon
11-21-2008, 08:28 AM
Not "always", but most of the time. Mustang light covers are as flat as a board. Surprising on a car built for speed.

Mustangs were built for speed? Someone should've passed that memo on to Ford. ;)

erickonphoenix
11-21-2008, 08:34 AM
Not "always", but most of the time. Mustang light covers are as flat as a board. Surprising on a car built for speed.

That was the first application I was thinking of. A film application would really help those Stangs.

TSi+WRX
11-21-2008, 09:10 AM
Military has those answers .:cool:

Who remember the 411 experiment/video ?

^ Why was that user, IIRC, banned? <---- genuine question.

languy99
11-21-2008, 10:45 AM
rejection = reflection + absorption

that said, since headlight covers are always slanted, I wouldn't care even if they are mirrored

Actually you wold car if they reject the light, that means to the laser gun it looks like a mirror, perfect for getting your speed. Even with a good jammer (LI) it would still get your speed, even easier than before. The film absorbs the IR light and turns into heat, they even say it is normal for the film to feel warm. Same thing that they do for radar, they turn the microwaves into heat by the special paint they use. Well this film does the same thing for IR.

ELVATO
11-21-2008, 03:40 PM
I wonder how much they would heat up with the headlights on.

languy99
11-21-2008, 05:22 PM
Not much, the film if fine to fairly high temps and if you can put your hand on the headlight and hold it for a few seconds your looking at around 150 degrees. I'll have to see what the full specs are when I get the sample and do the testing.

Eloi
11-21-2008, 05:37 PM
''Why was that user, IIRC, banned? <---- genuine question.''

Mystery ...

the video :http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=4905699432508959091&pr=goog-sl

It was a test of absorbtivity @ 900nm , veil = black stain ,
green = an organic dye .

ELVATO
11-21-2008, 05:51 PM
Hmm... I vaguely remember someone here used a green dye on their headlights. Was it RacerX? I wonder if it was ^that stuff.

Either way, I also remember a warning that pictures of vehicles with green headlights would get deleted. Never found out why...

PMoth
11-23-2008, 09:25 AM
Hmm... I vaguely remember someone here used a green dye on their headlights. Was it RacerX? I wonder if it was ^that stuff.

Either way, I also remember a warning that pictures of vehicles with green headlights would get deleted. Never found out why...

Maybe green absorbs infrared??? I wonder if Vermont plates are less reflective than other state plates.

TSi+WRX
11-23-2008, 03:16 PM
^ In doing some research on the T3 Alpha plate covers I just bought (off eBay - they were *super* cheap, barely $10 for a set of two, including shipping), the originals were "green," also.

[ The ones I got are clear? :confused: ]


Hmm... I vaguely remember someone here used a green dye on their headlights. Was it RacerX? I wonder if it was ^that stuff.

It's definitely RacerX - I remember him alluding-to/hinting-at this in another post, but I don't know if it's that stuff.....



Either way, I also remember a warning that pictures of vehicles with green headlights would get deleted. Never found out why...

Yep, I remember that, too.

IIRC, it was some kind of politics, and IIRC, it was also why The VEIL Guy had come to some conflict with various members of this Forum.

That was before I'd gotten really interested in passive protection, though (given the then-available VEIL G2 wasn't aesthetically "acceptable" for me, to put on my own vehicles), so my recall of that was/is hazy, too.

Thanks, Eloi. :)

Eloi
11-23-2008, 05:46 PM
'' Thanks, Eloi. ''

A lot of thanks Tsi for your support .

There is some nice chemical that will effectively absorb
IR , not so expensive and very effective but a truly tranparent
one ....still to be discovered.:D

The problem is financing personnal research with limited
money , limited equipment . For my own good I do .
For putting on the market a new product : no thanks ,
too much effort , too much incertainty , too much assle
about patents .... I do use jammer but still
believe in ''onion skin protection''

Our soldiers on their gear clothing use a kind of
absorbing coating in the ir , but not available to the public.
Due to the uv they have to re-do their coating periodically.
Stealth is now a science:cool:

Veil Guy is a precursor with his Veil , he opened the door
to domestic use of military ideas.
Thank you Veil Guy.

The Invisible Vervet
11-24-2008, 01:55 AM
Hmm. Very interesting. I too am curious about what you discover, LAN.

languy99
11-29-2008, 05:37 PM
Ok, i just got the film today and I waited till the tonight to do some testing, from my opinion, it works really well for how clear it is. Of course I will have to do some testing with alpine using real guns sometime soon, maybe after the holidays, but I have a video of how it works with the blinder heads firing and showing how it effects headlight light output.

Viedo:

YouTube - IR Film.wmv

Zapple
11-29-2008, 07:12 PM
That video is very interesting :). I look forward to seeing it against some actual guns.

languy99
11-29-2008, 08:25 PM
I just did some tests with the film against my bathroom mirror and using a remote control to see how much it dropped the reflection of the IR, if i went about 3 feet from the mirror you could almost not see the IR reflect anymore while on the side with no film it was still easily visible.

Lucky225
11-29-2008, 08:38 PM
this film looks promising :P

BlinderGuy
11-29-2008, 09:03 PM
I just did some tests with the film against my bathroom mirror and using a remote control to see how much it dropped the reflection of the IR, if i went about 3 feet from the mirror you could almost not see the IR reflect anymore while on the side with no film it was still easily visible.
I want some of that film!!!

languy99
11-29-2008, 10:42 PM
I want some of that film!!!

wait till some more testing is done.

languy99
11-29-2008, 10:47 PM
I applied some film to one of the corner reflectors on the car. The left one in the picture has the film the one on the right does not.

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/83/p10101810266691pd0.jpg

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/9038/p10101820270994pj0.jpg


http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/8651/p10101830278154mm6.jpg


http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/9716/p10101840282767uc8.jpg


YouTube - IR Film 2.wmv

rsatmans
11-29-2008, 11:51 PM
WOAH! That is awesome. What did you use to apply the film? This is a game changer any chance i can get a hold of this stuff?:D

languy99
11-30-2008, 12:43 AM
FYI: this film is a ***** to bend around contoured surfaces. If I do decide to use it I will have to come up with someway to make it bend. I might have to go to fairly high heat to get it to work with me.

You guys will have to wait for more real world testing to see if this film is even a viable alternative.

EDIT: I got it to look fairly decent (with lots of creases) but I am not a professional tint installer. If I spent more than 3 minutes on it I might have done a better job but I am more interested in it for testing not looks. So if you want to use a film on your lights I highly recommend professional installation, this is not a DIY project.

Aoshi
11-30-2008, 02:24 PM
easy, cheasy test... see how far away your remote works on your TV, then put the film over the sensor on the TV and test again.

I'm mainly interested in using this film to cover my plates. I need all the help I can get there.. :P

languy99
11-30-2008, 06:53 PM
just got back form testing the film with alpine, results coming soon.......:p

Zapple
11-30-2008, 06:54 PM
just got back form testing the film with alpine, results coming soon.......:p

Sweet :D

languy99
11-30-2008, 07:23 PM
here they are take them for what they are. I am still working on different projects regarding the IR absorbing materials. That is all that I can say for now.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9418/irfilm34470975vu2.jpg

Stealth Stalker
11-30-2008, 08:44 PM
What did you cover with the film, and where were you aiming with the guns?

Were the guns on a tripod, or freehand?

languy99
11-30-2008, 08:50 PM
What did you cover with the film, and where were you aiming with the guns?

Were the guns on a tripod, or freehand?

Covered all of the lights; headlights, corner markers and turn signals.

I was not aiming the guns, Alpine was and from what he told me on the jammers off he got 479 ft center and jammers on he got 375 ft on the headlight (no tint). I think he was trying to do his best to get a punch through. He was also doing the start/stop technique with the gun.

It was resting on the car door.

Eloi
11-30-2008, 09:05 PM
Languy ,

I would risk this answer :

The greatest problem is the reflection at the coating
interface :
ImageShack - Image Hosting :: targetinterfaceqy7.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=targetinterfaceqy7.jpg)

It only takes few molecules thick to return or absorb the ir :cool:

Ref.http://www.radardetector.net/forums/laser-jammers/40611-lidar-passive-technologies-nice-article-read.html

alpinestars_2002795
12-01-2008, 05:58 AM
The thing is though, that it takes a "Series" of Pulses to return to the gun to attain a speed on a lidar gun. Thats the thing your neglecting to also put into perspective. One "range" reading alone is not enough to give a lidar gun a "Speed" reading. You may get distance. Although distance isn't going to get you a ticket ;). Thankfully.

Why you ask? And yes I know you think i'm crazy, but do remember who found that article. So read on more please.

Ask languy about my car he'll tell you. Even with my jammers not firing he couldn't get me.

Why? Passive technologies.

Heres the thing.

The Gun "HAS to get a [Series] of pulses back throughout the reading cycle."

This series allows the Gun to see a "Change" in distance, which then the gun can "Calculate" as speed.

With a substance as such as Languy is using which I have seen with my own eyes. :eek:. And let me tell you guy's it works. But here is how.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/alpinestars_2002795/pic1.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/alpinestars_2002795/passivelasertechnologies.jpg

As you can see yes some pulses may be "Reflected" being the proper term. Although this is very unimportant to us. Because often times a lidar gun will take atleast 60 distance readings before imposing a speed reading. Even though only two are honestly needed. Although, they choose to take more distance readings for their anti panning software they brag about, not to mention it is more accuret to take a average over a larger group of numbers. Than to take an average of two or three readings. Thus which is makes lidar so much more accuret, and "WHY" it is so difficult to fight in court.

Now, do remember though that the lidar pulses are moving at the Speed of light which is roughly 300 million meters per second.

Meaning Will this buy you time, you bet. Will it give you perfect results? NO! It is by no means a "total" alternative to a jammer etc. Although it will drastically aid a jammer for what it perhaps "Can't see." Or. Perhaps aid it in prefoming to JTG or JFG type of performance. The results didn't suprise me as most Effective Passive Countermeasures i've seen typically only make it to roughly 400 or 500ft before you get punch through. Reason being is the lidar is finally powerfull enough to evade this sheath and thus gets enough return pulses to make ends meet.

The figures for passive measures I stated above are laser Veil.

Now, from what i've seen the stuff languy had on his car, was actually "MORE" effective than laser veil. Also more consistent in providing absoroption. Which it was nice to see maybe an alternative to laser veil since it's way steep price, and multipule reapplications it requires. Not to mention, it's always good it seems for the "Consumer" in a market that has competition. Thats the beauty of "Free Enterprise" I guess?

As for it working it definetly works. I've been doing such things for years. Hence why nobody can ever get readings on my cars.

Yet they still wonder why they receive 200-400ft PT's.

It's quite simple, passive techology is out there. It works, It works well, and always will. It might be the one thing we have going for us against these New "Tight" beamed lasers such as the TruSpeed lidar with it's beam being 2.5 milirands, as oposed to the LZ1 which is 3 milirands. Even though the LZ1 was a good test as it is a Gen 3 lidar and difficult to jam, as well as the PL2 it is difficult to jam as well, and has outstanding optics.

There were times yesterday where my LI's didn't even pick up the LZ1 being fired at them. Two run's back to back. Yet, my passive protection saved me 100percent. JTG.

Which Languy can vouch for.

As for green being a horrible color for lidar. That it is. Hence why my car is forrest green. For some reason green is horrible to lidar. I think it is just black to a lidar gun for some reason? Probably the difference in the IR color pallet as opposed to the Visiable light spectrum.

The reason the gun never gets a reading even though passive technology isn't 100 percent yes as you stated.

Is.

The gun might send out this, - - - - - - then it hits the surface in question coated with IR absorbing material that languy has and it does this back - big space - big space - big space - . Which is why when you guy's viewed that video that someone put up BTW Great video of it. The light goes Dim and almost not even visible on IR cam when it hit the Green dye. This is because there is so much less light coming back at the camera. Hence it's being "Absorbed." Meaning passive technologies work. They always have, and have for centeries, why do you think blackhawk helecopters are Flat black? Good point huh? This comes from someone who was U.S. Army Infantry for 3 years and used lasers on a regular basis to kill tanks roughly 3,750 meters out. Do the math thats, 12,303.75 ft.
There is only 5,280ft in one mile. So thats, 2.33 miles.


AlPiNe~;)

languy99
12-01-2008, 10:22 AM
UPDATE: I just talked to the manufacturer of the film and they said they can customize the level of IR absorbing and the level of light transmittance.

PRICE: I cannot give you guys a real figure yet on price per square foot but let me tell you, it's very, very competitive.

Lucky225
12-01-2008, 11:20 AM
UPDATE: I just talked to the manufacturer of the film and they said they can customize the level of IR absorbing and the level of light transmittance.

PRICE: I cannot give you guys a real figure yet on price per square foot but let me tell you, it's very, very competitive.

904nm :)

languy99
12-01-2008, 01:00 PM
I messaged them about getting the film working in that range(900-910nm), while transmitting as much visible light as possible. So I will have to wait to see what they say.

I am also working with another company trying to develop another product. ;)

djrams80
12-01-2008, 01:16 PM
Until someone puts it on a car and shoots it, we'll won't know how effective this is, or even if it is effective at all. But, as always, choices is good for the consumer.

languy99
12-01-2008, 01:18 PM
Until someone puts it on a car and shoots it, we'll won't know how effective this is, or even if it is effective at all. But, as always, choices is good for the consumer.

we did that yesterday, check a one page back.

djrams80
12-01-2008, 01:23 PM
we did that yesterday, check a one page back.Missed that, sorry. :o I think we might need more testing than that though.

languy99
12-01-2008, 03:14 PM
Missed that, sorry. :o I think we might need more testing than that though.

Of course we are, this is not even one that was made specifically for me, it was just a sample of what they offer as of right now.

There is a bunch more research and development that I need to do.

TSi+WRX
12-02-2008, 08:08 AM
Since this is a "smooth" film....

What would happen if we put VEIL over it?

Also, is there any "layering" effect to be achieved - given its excellent optical transparency, would two layers do a better job than one? particularly over the reflectors ("cube reflectors")?

Is it possible to dress then entire frontal aspect of a vehicle (including the front fenders) with this?

Finally -

VEIL has traditionally only been used on a vehicle's FORWARD lighting because, particularly G2, dimmed light output so much that it made use on rear lighting somewhat dangerous and/or would solicit too much enforcement attention.

Given the transparency of this particular film, I think it would do very well in that application!

languy99
12-02-2008, 09:16 AM
UPDATE: I just got an e-mail from the manufacture that states that they are working on a new film that has the optical clarity of normal PET film (clear white) while at the same time absorbing over 90% of IR light.

This film is coming early next year. I will be waiting for testing on this film when it comes out. :D


Since this is a "smooth" film....

What would happen if we put VEIL over it?

Also, is there any "layering" effect to be achieved - given its excellent optical transparency, would two layers do a better job than one? particularly over the reflectors ("cube reflectors")?

Is it possible to dress then entire frontal aspect of a vehicle (including the front fenders) with this?

Finally -

VEIL has traditionally only been used on a vehicle's FORWARD lighting because, particularly G2, dimmed light output so much that it made use on rear lighting somewhat dangerous and/or would solicit too much enforcement attention.

Given the transparency of this particular film, I think it would do very well in that application! With the standard film they have right now layering does work, more is better but I would wait for the new film to come out, which should do much better.

The new film would be great to use on front and rear lights. I would not layer the whole car in this film because of the adhesive is very strong and once set you could not remove it without damage to paint, this is something I could not guarantee. Maybe in the future there will be a film that could be put to protect paint while absorbing IR.

TSi+WRX
12-02-2008, 10:48 AM
^ Great stuff! :)

Keep us updated!

alpinestars_2002795
12-02-2008, 11:52 AM
Languy first off thanks for the help with trapster database. Secondly. About the film. 90 percent :eek:. Nice. As for layering the entire car in it TSI i've already considered it myself :D:D.. Maybe if he gets some of that dye i'll repaint the satty :D:D..

Big LOL


Good stuff though TSI it is a nice thought that makes me warm and fuzzy :).


Shoot us to the rear now :p.


AlPiNe~

TSi+WRX
12-02-2008, 12:33 PM
Languy first off thanks for the help with trapster database. Secondly. About the film. 90 percent :eek:. Nice. As for layering the entire car in it TSI i've already considered it myself :D:D.. Maybe if he gets some of that dye i'll repaint the satty :D:D..

Big LOL


Good stuff though TSI it is a nice thought that makes me warm and fuzzy :).


Shoot us to the rear now :p.


AlPiNe~

Dude, if you get any more stealth with that Saturn, you'll have opened up a black-hole. :p

alpinestars_2002795
12-02-2008, 12:47 PM
My new ride TSI


http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/alpinestars_2002795/Black_Hole_Milkyway.jpg


:D:D:D


:lol::lol::lol:


AlPiNe~:)

languy99
12-02-2008, 02:02 PM
The got an idea, if I can get my hands on a sample of the new film by the time the next GOL test comes around I might send it to them to test. If not that's fine because we could test it here in Michigan in the summer.

Alpinie already has a stalker, PL2 and sometime soon a truspeed.

Jimbonzzz has a ultralyte.

So all we need is the PL3, laser atlanta and a prolite.

alpinestars_2002795
12-02-2008, 03:20 PM
Well honestly though Languy, the PL3 is weak anyhow.. The only reason I think we like to see that in GOL tests is because it is so widely used.. Not that it's a decent gun. In all honesty the PLII and LZ1 are alot harder gun's to combat. Also the TruSpeed and the Ultralyte of jims are now widely used, and are hard gun's to defeat. So thats why we have the gun's we have. But ya the GOL thing might not be a bad idea.

Even though you know your more than welcome to test it with me whenever ya feel the need.;)

And yes, i will have a TruSpeed in roughly 2-3 months. Which is before the June 21st 09' invatational test date.

PS: rumor has it NMA might be getting a LA? But who knows? NMA?

AlPiNe~

TSi+WRX
12-02-2008, 04:09 PM
How do you guys have all the money for all these toys!!!! :p

alpinestars_2002795
12-03-2008, 08:56 AM
Thats classified :).


AlPiNe~

Eloi
12-03-2008, 11:52 AM
'' How do you guys have all the money for all these toys!!!! ''

Saving on tickets !

TSi+WRX
12-03-2008, 12:52 PM
Then where's my money!!!! :p

alpinestars_2002795
12-03-2008, 02:45 PM
Baby anna must have got in TSi's Sock drawer again :eek:... Dag wabbit anywaz.. LOL


:p..


J/k allen.


AlPiNe~

TSi+WRX
12-04-2008, 11:08 AM
^ :lol:

That's not that far from the truth.

Last month, the decision was between an aftermarket TMIC or a new 12V power-cart for Anna (she's outgrowing the little 6V Fisher Price thing that you've seen here, before).

Guess which one I chose?

:p

alpinestars_2002795
12-04-2008, 11:15 AM
LOL good stuff TSI Good stuff. So Languy whats the word on this film any news?


:confused:


AlPiNe~

languy99
12-04-2008, 12:01 PM
LOL good stuff TSI Good stuff. So Languy whats the word on this film any news?


:confused:


AlPiNe~

The only news I have is that they are coming out with a new film in early 2009 fed/mar, so I will have to wait to see what this new film is and get some for testing.

Stealth Stalker
12-09-2008, 05:12 PM
What was the originally intended purpose and market for this film?