Minimal Warning to Moving K-band Radar

[skylaneopo]

Is it not true that sometimes the mobile radar units that measure the oncoming vehicle's speed are not on, just the low power beam that tracks the police vehicle's own speed for reference (seem to remember reading about that years ago)? So, you may get minimal warning to an oncoming mobile radar because the radar is not on but the detector picks up the low power emission, or because the radar is "fired" at close range?

[MEM-TEK]

Is it not true that sometimes the mobile radar units that measure the oncoming vehicle's speed are not on, just the low power beam that tracks the police vehicle's own speed for reference (seem to remember reading about that years ago)? So, you may get minimal warning to an oncoming mobile radar because the radar is not on but the detector picks up the low power emission, or because the radar is "fired" at close range?

Yes, this is true -- but only for certain (much older?) models of K band radar guns. Any of the more top-of-the-line radar detectors out there produced by Belscort, Whistler and Valentine can detect this police cruiser reference speed measuring signal from distances between 1/4 to 1/2 mile. Jimbonzzz would know for sure, but I think that most modern moving radar guns get the LEO's patrol speed directly from the ODB II sensor port which modern cars have or from some sort of sensor which gets installed around the speedometer cable.

I still encounter these older types of moving K radar guns while traveling through smaller towns or along rural highways.

--Michael

[jimbonzzz]

Is it not true that sometimes the mobile radar units that measure the oncoming vehicle's speed are not on, just the low power beam that tracks the police vehicle's own speed for reference (seem to remember reading about that years ago)? So, you may get minimal warning to an oncoming mobile radar because the radar is not on but the detector picks up the low power emission, or because the radar is "fired" at close range?

Yes, this is true -- but only for certain (much older?) models of K band radar guns. Any of the more top-of-the-line radar detectors out there produced by Belscort, Whistler and Valentine can detect this police cruiser reference speed measuring signal from distances between 1/4 to 1/2 mile. Jimbonzzz would know for sure, but I think that most modern moving radar guns get the LEO's patrol speed directly from the ODB II sensor port which modern cars have or from some sort of sensor which gets installed around the speedometer cable.

I still encounter these older types of moving K radar guns while traveling through smaller towns or along rural highways.

--Michael

Did someone metnion my name?

There's only ONE gun that emitted a low-power secondary signal when in standby mode, the Kustom KR-11, which was first introduced almost 30 years ago, and was only made in K-Band. There's VERY few of these left on the roads today. For some reason this is mentioned on the BEL/Escort websites, and basically implies that all moving tradar works this way, which I think is misleading (per the above). If you get minimal warning on K-band, it is VERY likely to be caused by something else. If you get minimal warning on Ka band, it is definitely caused by something else

Modern moving radar acquires the patrol car speed based on multiple doppler returns from one transmitted signal. In oncoming moving mode, the strongest doppler return (the "low doppler" in this case) is the patrol car speed from the radar reflecting off of all of the objects and terrain that the patol car passes, the second strongest doppler return (the "high doppler" in this case)represents the sum of the patrol car speed and the target speed. In same-lane moving mode, the strongest doppler return (the "high doppler" in this case) represents the patrol car speed, while the second strongest (the "low doppler" in this case) represents the difference between the patrol car speed and the target speed. Some radar units connect to the spedometer sensor or the OBDII to assist in preventing errors, but the speed is still acquired via the radar.

Jim

[MEM-TEK]

Is it not true that sometimes the mobile radar units that measure the oncoming vehicle's speed are not on, just the low power beam that tracks the police vehicle's own speed for reference (seem to remember reading about that years ago)? So, you may get minimal warning to an oncoming mobile radar because the radar is not on but the detector picks up the low power emission, or because the radar is "fired" at close range?

Yes, this is true -- but only for certain (much older?) models of K band radar guns. Any of the more top-of-the-line radar detectors out there produced by Belscort, Whistler and Valentine can detect this police cruiser reference speed measuring signal from distances between 1/4 to 1/2 mile. Jimbonzzz would know for sure, but I think that most modern moving radar guns get the LEO's patrol speed directly from the ODB II sensor port which modern cars have or from some sort of sensor which gets installed around the speedometer cable.

I still encounter these older types of moving K radar guns while traveling through smaller towns or along rural highways.

--Michael

Did someone metnion my name?

There's only ONE gun that emitted a low-power secondary signal when in standby mode, the Kustom KR-11, which was first introduced almost 30 years ago, and was only made in K-Band. There's VERY few of these left on the roads today. For some reason this is mentioned on the BEL/Escort websites, and basically implies that all moving tradar works this way, which I think is misleading (per the above). If you get minimal warning on K-band, it is VERY likely to be caused by something else. If you get minimal warning on Ka band, it is definitely caused by something else

Modern moving radar acquires the patrol car speed based on multiple doppler returns from one transmitted signal. In oncoming moving mode, the strongest doppler return (the "low doppler" in this case) is the patrol car speed from the radar reflecting off of all of the objects and terrain that the patol car passes, the second strongest doppler return (the "high doppler" in this case)represents the sum of the patrol car speed and the target speed. In same-lane moving mode, the strongest doppler return (the "high doppler" in this case) represents the patrol car speed, while the second strongest (the "low doppler" in this case) represents the difference between the patrol car speed and the target speed. Some radar units connect to the spedometer sensor or the OBDII to assist in preventing errors, but the speed is still acquired via the radar.

Jim

Yes, I called your name! Its kind of like chanting an incantation to raise the devil. :wink: But, yes -- I figured that you would indeed have a more accurate explanation, which you do.

I first encountered KR-11 guns during the early 1980s -- making them maybe 25 years old? In any event, one small town on my route from home to my where my father lives around 75 miles away is actually still using these old KR-11 radar guns. Yep, it is a very cash strapped county. On the other hand, I've talked to several LEOs who said that their KR-11s were very reliable over the years. So I guess that this particular county has opted for keeping the very old bought and paid for radar guns operational.

Maybe there is something to be said for analog electronics? I've been able to easily refurbish nearly two dozen very old analog or mostly analog radar detectors.

--Michael

[jimbonzzz]

In any event, one small town on my route from home to my where my father lives around 75 miles away is actually still using these old KR-11 radar guns. Yep, it is a very cash strapped county. On the other hand, I've talked to several LEOs who said that their KR-11s were very reliable over the years. So I guess that this particular county has opted for keeping the very old bought and paid for radar guns operational.

Smells like BS to me. I'll be more likely to believe you if you post some pics or video

Maybe there is something to be said for analog electronics? I've been able to easily refurbish nearly two dozen very old analog or mostly analog radar detectors.

I'm curious: Do you have test points and alignment procedures for all of these old units? If so, perhaps you could share them with the forum! If not, how can you actually consider them refurbished? These old units had all kinds of manual adjustments that would have most likely drifted over the years: even if they seem to detect radar ok, they would most likely not be in like-new operational condition. Unless your definition of refurbished is cleaning them up, adding threebond, and tightening the screws?

[MEM-TEK]

In any event, one small town on my route from home to my where my father lives around 75 miles away is actually still using these old KR-11 radar guns. Yep, it is a very cash strapped county. On the other hand, I've talked to several LEOs who said that their KR-11s were very reliable over the years. So I guess that this particular county has opted for keeping the very old bought and paid for radar guns operational.

Smells like BS to me. I'll be more likely to believe you if you post some pics or video

Maybe there is something to be said for analog electronics? I've been able to easily refurbish nearly two dozen very old analog or mostly analog radar detectors.

I'm curious: Do you have test points and alignment procedures for all of these old units? If so, perhaps you could share them with the forum! If not, how can you actually consider them refurbished? These old units had all kinds of manual adjustments that would have most likely drifted over the years: even if they seem to detect radar ok, they would most likely not be in like-new operational condition. Unless your definition of refurbished is cleaning them up, adding threebond, and tightening the screws?

Regarding my encounters with older Kustom K band guns...

No BS. As far as the old Kustom KR-11 guns go, its Gordon County in GA, the county seat of which is Calhoun. I encountered Kustom KR radars twice late this last spring/early summer. All I know is that, along Hwy 53 in the middle of nowhere, I started getting a very weak but steady K band alert and spotted the LEO between 1/4 to 1/2 mile away. I slowed down, only to be hit a few seconds later with instant-on K band which pegged out my V995. There is nothing on that particular stretch of highway which produces false X or K band signals. This happened twice to me earlier this year since the three or four mile area was a construction zone where turn lanes were being added in between the divided highway.

Regarding older RDs which I have refurbished...

My tricks. Perhaps I should send you a few refurbished units for testing? Actually, nearly all issues which I have found mainly involve oxidation due to age. I'll bet you one thing -- my refurbished Cobra Trapshooter Pro II or Bel XKR-LR will detect both X and K band almost every bit as good as the best V1! Of course, these older RD models will false for just about anything including cell phones, et cetera.

Seriously though, do you really want to test some of my refurbished RDs? Or maybe I should send them to Michael Batten at Whistler for testing?

Best Regards,

--Michael

[bart99gt]

Actually the KR-11 emits very quick bursts (still much longer than a POP burst) to measure patrol speed in standby, rather than transmitting at a lower power. The patent on the features of that radar is an interesting read.

I've seen some Kustom Troopers/KR-10SPs and Genesis Is in Gordon County on my travels, IIRC. It would be pretty interesting if they actually are using a KR-11 though, it would be the only place I've ever travelled through that would still have them!

[jimbonzzz]

Regarding my encounters with older Kustom K band guns...

No BS. As far as the old Kustom KR-11 guns go, its Gordon County in GA, the county seat of which is Calhoun. I encountered Kustom KR radars twice late this last spring/early summer. All I know is that, along Hwy 53 in the middle of nowhere, I started getting a very weak but steady K band alert and spotted the LEO between 1/4 to 1/2 mile away. I slowed down, only to be hit a few seconds later with instant-on K band which pegged out my V995. There is nothing on that particular stretch of highway which produces false X or K band signals. This happened twice to me earlier this year since the three or four mile area was a construction zone where turn lanes were being added in between the divided highway.

So you haven't even actually visually identified the guns, you're just judging from the encounters? I'm sure you know where I'm going here... There's plenty of different things that could cause the scenarios you described, even with no false alert sources nearby. A KR-11 would be at the very bottom of the list of possibilities.

Regarding older RDs which I have refurbished...

My tricks. Perhaps I should send you a few refurbished units for testing? Actually, nearly all issues which I have found mainly involve oxidation due to age. I'll bet you one thing -- my refurbished Cobra Trapshooter Pro II or Bel XKR-LR will detect both X and K band almost every bit as good as the best V1! Of course, these older RD models will false for just about anything including cell phones, et cetera.

Seriously though, do you really want to test some of my refurbished RDs? Or maybe I should send them to Michael Batten at Whistler for testing?

Your "tricks"? So I guess that means NO about the test points and alignment procedures? Regardless of how well you think it alerts to radar, that still doesn't mean it is aligned to like-new factory specs. You seem to make a habit of throwing around this "refurbished" thing pretty loosely...you don't happen to sell electronics on ebay by any chance do you? Is there a reason why you don't consider that just a tad misleading?

Yeah send some to Michael B, might be interesting. And if they're Whistlers, maybe he'll align them for you :wink:

[edweird]

Actually the KR-11 emits very quick bursts (still much longer than a POP burst) to measure patrol speed in standby, rather than transmitting at a lower power. The patent on the features of that radar is an interesting read.

Interesting! Back when I had my Fuzzbuster II or original Escort, and was driving a route in GA and SC is when I would see KR-10 and KR-11's inside the local and state police cars. My job required me to park adjacent to hosptial emergency rooms and seeing LEO's parked there was common, and allowed me to look at their hardware.

A KR-11 encounter was just like MEM-TEK described. A weak steady signal which then instantly ramped to full strength when you were targeted.

To think there are still units in service 20 years later is surprising, but assuming they still work and can catch folks, the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind in a cash strapped agency.

[bart99gt]

I should mention that the KR-11 still didn't display a patrol speed when in standby, but rather it used the data from the burst to allow the radar to more quickly acquire the patrol speed when brought out of standby. The bursts (about 1/2 second long) would be stored in the memory of the CPU and the most recent measurement would be compared against the incoming signals when the RADAR is brought out of hold.

The KR-11s patent # is 382762961