Meaningful Laser Shield tests?

[TSi+WRX]

^ Very good post - thanks.

It's not that I don't believe you - I do. And I more than believe that you were able to effect near-instant/instant PTs.

I'm not debating any of that.

But here, I think, the problem is simply that this is "point defense."

At 1000 ft., the LIDAR beam would have covered way more than just the plate - protected by the LaserShield or not.

Look at The VEIL Guy's IR videos. There's way more hot-spots than just the lighting elements or the plate itself. At-distance, even if one had their headlights completely covered and with a black piece of velvet for a plate, I'd still think that the vehicle's center-mass hot-spots are more than capable of giving the LIDAR a near-instant lock.

And closer (say, simply, at any distance for which the LIDAR beam is equal to or LESS than the plate area, for which you were able to selectively target the plate and ONLY the plate), as you suggested, one could argue that the LaserShield was simply "overpowered."

So what good, then, does the LaserShield do?

And I think that's the issue.

In terms of it being the sole defense, it's virtually worthless.

But to be absolutely honest, I also think the same of using VEIL - or any other passive countermeasure.

Sure, you can VEIL the headlights - but if you don't do the fogs, or if your vehicle has other hardpoints that remain not addressed, what gains there may be is still drastically shadowed by the possibility that, for whatever reason, there just might come that unexpected PT: for while one run may see your vehicle getting so much protection, on the next, it could be that just a difference in the angle from which the LIDAR comes in and "sees" a part of the bodywork causes a much earlier PT.

Sure, you can put a matte bra on the front of the car, but if you don't dress the lights or have a state-issue, highly "retro-reflective" plate hanging off the front of the car, it's not going to matter that the other ares are masked-off.

What the problem really is, I think, is that passive measures requires synergy.

That the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts, simply because each part in and of itself only takes care of one SPECIFIC aim, and the rest of the un-addressed concerns remain so highly vulnerable.

With the LaserShield, I'd always thought, from looking at its surface, that it just "diffuses" the incoming LIDAR beam, and that's all. That it functions essentially to cut-down on LIDAR return by making it so that less of the light gets back to the receiver of the LIDAR device. But look at this thread, which was cited above:

IR Photos showing effect of Laser shield and Veil

That's an un-treated LaserShield - no VEIL, no paint, no nothing. Just "out-of-the-box."

Compare that to the IR videos that The VEIL Guy and happya$$ too, of VEIL'ed LaserShields.

To me, what mswlogo submitted would suggest that LaserShield *does*, in and of itself, attenuate IR light - that it doesn't just scatter it, but that it actually inhibits certain of its wavelengths.

I think that's enough evidence to say that, for what it is, is fully functional *AS A PLATE COVER THAT REDUCES/MITIGATES IR-RETURN SPECIFICALLY FROM THAT AREA*, but that in the real world, its existence as a SOLE protective device is flawed, as, logically speaking, the plate is only one such specific point-weakness on the front of the car, and that without properly addressing, ALSO, all of the other problems, this would be akin to wearing "proper eye protection" for a dip in a pool of acid.

Now, is it worth the $10 / $20 / $30 ?

That's a question I don't think I can answer - for I truly believe that this is individual-preference/value based.

[Lucky225]

X2^ The laser shield I think does it's job as veil guy has pointed out in ir milspec video. I think alpine you would get the same results WITHOUT a plate whatsoever due to headlights/chrome/etc. If you don't have other countermeasures such as veil/jammer etc.. obviously the LS isn't worth the plastic it's printed on because your vehicle is one big shiny reflector besides the plate it's self. I think with other countermeasures implemented the LS *IS* valuable, b/c if you have jammer/veil on your front end but nothing on your front plate, the front plate is your 1 weakest point that will fail the laser jammer/veil UP CLOSE where the laser beam is NARROWER and the plate is a big reflective object. In that case I think the LS could be invaluable in reducing IR reflectivity.

[Aoshi]

Alpinestars,

I sincerly appreciate your very informative post. I think TSI+WRX summed up my only concerns with your tests. No matter how accurate your shot is, unless you blacked out or otherwise took care of the other reflective surfaces on the vehicle you have no way of telling WHAT gave the LIDAR return. We can blame the plate, but fact is we just don't know for sure, especially at 1000'+..

As for the laser pointer, I think we all knew it wasn't a truely accurate representation as they are different light spectrums and power.. What I was more interested in was using a visible light that was a more focused with a linear behavior so its path could be easily followed.

Hopefully this thread will spark some more interest from the community to give some definative answers!

[Lucky225]

Originally Posted by Aoshi

Alpinestars,

I sincerly appreciate your very informative post. I think TSI+WRX summed up my only concerns with your tests. No matter how accurate your shot is, unless you blacked out or otherwise took care of the other reflective surfaces on the vehicle you have no way of telling WHAT gave the LIDAR return. We can blame the plate, but fact is we just don't know for sure, especially at 1000'+..

As for the laser pointer, I think we all knew it wasn't a truely accurate representation as they are different light spectrums and power.. What I was more interested in was using a visible light that was a more focused with a linear behavior so its path could be easily followed.

Hopefully this thread will spark some more interest from the community to give some definative answers!

X2, Alpine if you were an officer on the stand right now I would flip the script on you so fast by presenting facts that were brought to light BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, lidar guns = 3 "powerful" beams, 1000 feet = WIDER BEAMS. Yes, this may be the reason why LS doesn't work(i.e. "too powerful"), but it may also be the reason WHY you got a return, from something other then the plate.

[alpinestars_2002795]

(Quote from Lucky) "I think alpine you would get the same results WITHOUT a plate whatsoever due to headlights/chrome/etc. If you don't have other countermeasures such as veil/jammer etc.. obviously the LS isn't worth the plastic it's printed on because your vehicle is one big shiny reflector"

Really so where exactly is the chorme on this satty do tell?



Headlamp covers on, which i run during the day. So where is this huge chorme girlle I have? Or better yet, my chome embelem's? I took them off man. NIce try although even Jim Bonzz will tell you there isn't anything reflective on my ride.




Other than my tail lamps here where is all this chorme your discussing?



Heck I don't even have Marker lights, I even took those off and rigged those.





Guess I'm just not seeing all this Chrome I supposedly have on my car huh? Maybe I need my eyes checked or something, but I think that is the most none reflective car i've ever seen.



AlPiNe~

[alpinestars_2002795]

(Yet another quote) "X2, Alpine if you were an officer on the stand right now I would flip the script on you so fast by presenting facts that were brought to light BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, lidar guns = 3 "powerful" beams, 1000 feet = WIDER BEAMS. Yes, this may be the reason why LS doesn't work(i.e. "too powerful"), but it may also be the reason WHY you got a return, from something other then the plate."


Then how exactly are you to explain a punchtrough of roughly 500ft. Granted the gun is powerfull at the distance. ALthough the beam is tighter my friend. It is only 1.5 feet wide. Thats not much. Or how about at 300ft. It got readings there as well. All I know is I don't care to argue with you, you can argue with yourself. I've seen it, and I know, I own the guns. I know it's garbage, and it doesn't work. Hence I don't run one myself, as you can see I run a photoprotector plate cover instead. If you wana use one, or beleive they work. Go right ahead thats your loss not mine. Personally, i don't really care anymore, as see, one day when your depending on that cover you'll get nailed. Then when I get the pm. I'll just laugh as I have many other times, when I tryed to warn others. Although, i'm just stupid, i'm probably paid off I guess right? Sorry to break it to you lucky but im not. I'm just the average guy. Thats it. Nothing more, nothing less. Infact I got smashed from a forum before for voiceing that people where being payed off. So, I guess beleive who you want to beleive. I'm tired of having to defend myself to someone who doesn't have a tenth of the electronics I have. Also, as I said it's pointless, it's like arguing with a drunk, and as far as i'm concern argue with yourself, and have fun with it.


AlPiNe~

[Lucky225]

LOL damn didn't mean to hit your pwnbone alpine, I don't run a lasershield either, I was just trying to point out it does have SOME credibility, the ir spec videos show that they're better then 3m tape solution, which has been proven to give you some time. I'm not saying it's something I'd rely on or even think of purchasing, just saying it does what it's intended to do, it reduces IR reflection.

[Aoshi]

Alpinestars, dude, seriously.. you need to RELAX...!

In your original post you didn't specify the criteria of your testing, so we all assumed you didn't do anything special with your car and thus it would be serving a return off many other points.

It looks to me like your test was very valid indeed... Did you run the test on the front or the back of the car?

Don't get so defensive if people ask questions or point out stuff you may have missed. We're all just looking for the truth that this works or doesn't work. I don't think anyone in this thread (thus far) has any hidden agenda here..

Though I do find it interesting that the plate appears to do so much with an IR camera, but fails so miserably with a gun. Anywho, my CR8APL8 just arrived so hopefully this will help the lasershield out a bit.. :P

[Stealth Stalker]

Originally Posted by Aoshi

Anywho, my CR8APL8 just arrived so hopefully this will help the lasershield out a bit.. :P

Let us know how it looks. Some of the CR8APL8s we'ev seen here look like crap, and are not very realistic replicas. What state is yours, and is it accurate?

[Aoshi]

It's an Ontario plate.. Overall it's passable...

They did a good job matching the plate. The numbers are a *little* thinner than a real one, and the crown that appears in the center of the plate looks like garbage.. That's something I'll need to touch up.

Mine looks a lot better than some of the pictures I've seen posted. I'm not amazed by the job, but it's what I expect for $25. Anywho, it's only for the front so it doesn't need to pass heavy scrutiny..