AlPiNe Up NOrth InVaTaTiOnal 08' Scheduled for Nov 15th 2008

[languy99]

I don't know I think I should have done better against the stalker, maybe its my head alignment (I doubt it) or maybe it was the gun, it was doing some weird things. Because looking at the GOL 2008 results I should have JTG the stalker easily. And I should have done better against the PL2. I think sometime I will have to recheck the heads and see if they are pointing out too much. I know they are level, but they might not be straight ahead.

Prolaser 2 Stalker LZ1 Ultralyte
Languy99 327 358 372
GOL 2008 276 30 680


One question, how are the LED's in the blinder aligned on the circuit board? Straight on, dead ahead or what? Anyone have a picture of a J16 taken apart? Maybe I should swap the heads around, have the LEDs on the outside and the receptors on the inside. From the GOL 2008 test pictures I can see they are mounted opposite of mine. Maybe that has something to do with the punchthroughs.

[alpinestars_2002795]

IDK i've never had any issues with my LZ1 i shoot it frequently and have no problems with it. I think it is just such a weird gun, and rare, it's kind of a different gun that people aren't used to the platform.

Also The GOL has had similar occurences that maybe jim just doesn't recall from years prior with the LZ1 where it would get miracoulous PT at well over 1,000ft on a blinder Lidar jammer. Does this happen all the time. Not always, can it happen more than once yes. It depends on a number of uncontrolled variables, the shooter, the particulates/water particles in the air/ the weather/ Each run is different, even though you try to keep these varibles the same, I gaurentee you eventually something won't be the same in one run as in the next. The terrian as well could also play a part. I have watched PT like that occur frequently in GOL tests with the LZ1 where even happyA$$ was getting upset with his blinders, going What the heck? This has happened in Lorain ohio as well, and is documented on older GOL videos. Watch them. See for yourself. The LZ1 is a truely Deadly gun, and can never be thought of or overlooked as a "Easy Gun to jam." Now the PLIII thats a different story. If this problem was occcuring on that Then i'd concern myself. Although 300ft on a LZ1 I wouldn't even concern myself. I'd slide my heads out a little further, and call it good. I truely wouldn't expect alot more out of a blinder than 200-300ft consistent jam, with the occasional miracoulus PT, i mean even LI has Miraclous PT's look at StealthJamal he got PT on a Quad head LI that no one else could attain. Do we need to question that gun as well? I mean it got PT didn't it? ANd if the gun got More PT that tells you it's working better not worse. Even Leon has stated and will tell you, call him, he'll tell you i'm gonna be honest with you, don't expect JTG all the time from a blinder, but will it save your butt most times YOU BET! You've seen that, it's very consistent really, up to 300ft will that most times save you? Yes, i'd say quite often most of the time ya. They rearly shoot that close to start with you have plenty of time to cut it down. Thats what Leon would tell you. He'd say, "Look i'm not going to bs or lie to you." Is it going to JTG everytime, "NO" Can it on occasion on the right car, "YES." Although he will tell you on most cars you can expect 200 300ft most times pretty consistently.

He will also tell you this, because i guarentee your thinking well the J16Rev head is supposed to be so much better. Well I got this info from not too long ago even. Just this summer infact. He told me, "They beefed up the LED output on the New J15-J16 Rev heads, but they still aren't getting the results they want "YET" He even told me he wasn't totally impressed with the improvment, and said it wasn't leaps and bounds or anything, but it was a hair better. THis comes right from the cat's mouth in Palm Beach FLA. So What i'm saying is they are still working on LI type preformence and expect them to have it soon, as they are determined to take back that market from the sounds of what Leon was discussing with me on the phone. But I respect Leon for being honest. And thats why I loved seeing you had a blinder. Because He is Legit, he won't lie to you, and he'll back you up Languy which is good. He'll help you if anything goes wrong with your setup, and is in my opinon the most respected CS LJ retailer on this board. So it's not The LZ1, it's not totally your setup although like I said i'd move them out a tad more, not like alot but some make sure that head can see past your hood to the top part of the hood that is insturmental in your success with blinder. Remember they don't have the "Wide" off axis angle view that LI or LPP has. Other than that, I thought your setup worked GREAT languy, and I don't see any reason for any complaints it's working exactly as it should, and your jamming very well. I think your doing very good. More than good enough to Evade any officer in Mi that tried to nail you.


It was nothing to smack somebody 3,000ft out with the LZ1.

I had no issue getting punch through on it, but i've used it alot now too. The beam divergance is only 3 milirand wide. Which makes it 1 very hard to detect, and 2 it is a very hard gun to jam. Which is why it's in the arsenal, that and it has jam indicator codes which are nice.

The pulse rate is dead on at 130pps

Meaning it isn't the gun. It is TX/Transmitting just fine.

It is just deadly. Honestly 300ft is pretty typical. Even with a PL2 against a Blinder setup. The best you might do is 200~ 250ft on most cars. Unless you go gun ho like yours truely and take everything reflective away from the shooter entirely. Not to mention your heads where "SLIGHTLY" tucked in. We aren't talking "Leaps and bounds but i'd move them out about another 1/4 inch if it where me.

This will aid them in keeping reflections from above the head from bouncing back, because if you have them recessed where the top part of the diodes cannot see the incoming TX signals then what good are you doing. If I shot you center mass on your hood i'd get PT easily. If you move them out the 1/4 inch that PT would dissapate or dissapear entirely.

Trust me I know, i've made blinders JTG with 4 guns pointed at them Languy. It can be done, although the setup is very very critical. And even that 1/4 inch will make differences that would wow you.

NMA is just not used to the LZ1 he just has the PL2 which is a nice gun don't get me wrong. Although it is totally different in platform and attempting to compare the two is like comparing apples to oranges. First off the PL2 is 4ft wide at 1,000ft where the LZ1 is 3Ft wide at 1000ft.

If that gives you any idea how much tighter the beam is and the optics on the LZ1 compared to the PL2.

Not saying the PL2 doesn't have good optics it does, it was made by Laser Atlanta for goodness sake.

Although, i personally beleive the LZ1 is alot nastier gun the the PL2 in my opinon. Due to the fact that you have two totally seperate lenses on the LZ1 one for TX and one for RX. The PL2 doesn't have these types of lenses. It merely has one inner and outer lens which in essence are more like having only 1 lense to do both operations similar to the PL1.

This makes receiveing PT alot faster, and alot easier. Although, don't forget a dark color car will give lidar problems, and also to boot the tightness of the beam itself compared to the PL2 to a new operator would make it seem very difficult compared to the PL2 to accuire a reading.

As I said before that gun was originally LPP's gun that they used for testing. It is legit.

The doppler doesn't go off on the Stalker LZ1 constantly that is a misconception that they had. It goes off when it sees something reflective. Meaning when it wasn't tonning it was because the Lidar didn't see a reflective point, this is the lidar guns way of telling the operator, move me to a better more reflective point. This is good for you because you found out that yes red is a dark color as I stated to you at the event, and that it's not as reflective as persay chrome your headlamps.

On to some more results.


Spectre II RDD Testing numbers


Vette 9500Ci Not detected.
Aoshi's satty Not detected. Sti-R
GTO_04 1.7 V1 Detected 113Ft
GTO_04 1.8 V1 Detected 170Ft
Languy 3.864v1 Detected Rear 290Ft Front 460Ft
Whistler Pro 58 Languy Detected Rear 816Ft Front 6/10 mile.
Bel 955 Detected Front 145Ft
Mike's 9500ix Detected Rear 0 Front 60ft
Escort X-50 Detected Front 477ft
9500i (NON ix) Detected Front 270ft


AlPiNe~

[REBinc]

Do you guys think you'll have one in the spring? The drive wasn't the problem, just this was probably the worst week for me with all the driving I'll be doing in a couple days. I need an excuse to go visit some friends at Michigan State.

[alpinestars_2002795]

Most likely the 4th annual Alpine Invatational event will be held in July of 2009.


It's a yearly event and get together. We are bumping it to July to make sure we have warmer weather this next time.


AlPiNe~

[PMoth]

A few things should be noted about my results;

My vehicle has veil on the front headlights and sidemarkers, a black leather bra covering the front and it's a dark color vehicle.

During my original run, with my LI jammer enabled, I left my Front Plate on protected with a Laser Shield. We were able to get a punchthrough on my car at over 1,000 ft TWICE in a row (using the Stalker).

When I removed the license plate and Laser Shield, and *TURNED OFF* my LI, we got my punchthrough all the way down to 350ft!!!

Obviously, when I enabled the jammer I was JTG all the way.

I'm very dissapointed with the Laser Shield, and can't beleive it performs so badly yet is so widely recommended. Why on earth would any of the respected retailers endorse a product that can be beaten so easily at over 1,000ft, and worse yet they ALL do so without offering any test results of their own!

My advice; if you're required to run a front plate, do NOT depended on the LS alone. Veil has proven itself in numerous testing including this one, so treat the LS with veil and it will actually offer some amount of protection.


Anyhow, many thanks to everyone that showed up! I learned lots and had a great time... can't wait for next year!

Interesting... Are your heads aligned and leveled properly? Are they unobstructed and mounted flush with the front bumper? There have been many tests against the LZ1 with the LI equipped on vehicles with a far more reflective signature than your vehicle. For instance, at our NE testing event, CrazyVolvoRob, Hockey005, Dorsce, and TambourineMan all have Laser Interceptors. They all have front plates. CVR was the only one with a Laser Shield. They were all able to JTG the Stalker without breaking a sweat. Not to mention every other gun thrown at them.

My car has the LI heads obstructed behind my mesh grill and I JTG the LZ1 when the shooter aims center mass. My license plate has a laser shield and is mounted below my driver's side headlamp and PT with the LZ1 is achieved by aiming the perimeter of the targeting dot, within the scope, at the corners of my headlamp or lower right side of my plate. And when it does occur, it happens at less than 1000 ft. With a tripod, aim starting at, and concentrating on those weakspots, it may be possible to achieve a 900ft PT. Aiming directly at the headlamps will result in JTG. And don't forget, my heads are obstructed. The only gun that pwn3d my headlamps with the LI heads mounted the way they are is the PL3. The TruSpeed may do the same.

Why is any of that relevant? Because this is the first time we've seen such paltry results of LI vs LZ1. A few last questions, did the shooter begin targeting at 3500 ft and finally achieve PT at around 1000ft? If so, could the heads be overheating? Now that wouldn't surprise me at all. I would beware of such strenuous testing and would also be concerned for my LI's reliability at that point. One has to wonder if these 2000+ ft tests decrease the lifespan of the LI or other non-time limited jammers in general? I think these are valid questions that should be addressed.

And regarding the Laser Shield, anything that helps cut down the IR signature of your vehicle is a good buy. Not to mention bugs are easily removed from it.

[Aoshi]

You know, we can question the crap outta the LI but the fact is, as a passive countermeasure, the LaserShield does sweet f**k all.

If my car can passively Jam to 300ft, and adding the plate/lasershield combo screws me over at 1,000+ feet (WITH the jammer on!) then what use is the LaserShield?

The heads are level, although they are below my bumper and recessed back about 1/4" or so. This only covers the top of the heads by a small amount, but they are on each side of the plate, so this should have been the absolute BEST position to defend the front plate.

As for overheating, now that is a distinct possibility... though we only ever did 2 runs in a row before breaking and it was really, really freaking cold (Snowing on and off). Shooting began at 3,000ft, but the only 3,000ft reading Alpine got was on the rear of passing trucks (Correct me if I'm wrong!)

Either way, I'm extremely dissapointed. Even looking at it as a strictly passive countermeasure I would have expected A LOT more. Used in combination with Veiled lights (and a jammer!) still offered a PT at well above 1,000ft - not the results ANYONE (but Alpine) expected!

[alpinestars_2002795]

In our testing the Laser Sheild did nothing to reduce you signature.


Thats what Aoshi was trying to tell you. He finally got a chance to see that himself and wants answers I think now, as he finally got a chance to see in realtime that what i expressed wasn't bs and the Laser Sheild itself does nothing to reduce your lidar signature.

Hence why he said adding veil would be your only option. Although I haven't added in yet that when I attempted that with veil all it did is make my plate look like it got covered in dirt. And you would for surely get light up at that point for an obsructed plate even with the lightest of coatings from what I had seen attempting to apply it multipule different times to the same poor look and result. It for some reason doesn't take to the cover very nicely. Why I could never understand. I think it is because veil is so runny.

Aoshi will also agree I think now that the only true way to reduce a plate reflection is to remove the plate from the picture entirely.

Unfortunatly front plate required people really don't have many options out there today, cr8aplate is the only true option, and they don't look right, they can be noticed if checked. Also they are so non alike I would be very leary attempting to run one as a rear plate.

As for targeting distances yes, cars where shot for the hole length of the test course 3,500ft.

As for the Jammer heat? I don't think that was a factor, it was roughly 30 degree's Feirnheit outdoors. And in the past i've had no problems JTG'ing those types of distances. Not saying i didn't JTG that day, i was busy making video's and shooting lidar at times.

Center mass shots where done, as well as headlight, and even a roofline shot or two was attempted, as well as in some run's a side mirror shot. Although those where not the primary aiming places for every run.

Manufacturing varience I say. Maybe that is what it is maybe I just have one deadly LZ1 any takers lol? Hey I guess atleast I don't have a dud?

Aoshi I didn't want to speak on your behalf about the Laser Sheild although I think you see now that Laser Sheild itself is quite a dissapointment. Very dissapointing, and I still to this day don't understand why so many people think it's "Gotta" work, if anybody doesn't beleive me, stop on by. I'll even let you shoot the LZ1, or the PL2. Which ever suits your fancy. I was upset too when I found it to be utterly a useless 20 dollar investment, but let's not let others fall into that pitfall here and haveing them wasting their hard earned cash on something that i've seen time and time again fail miserably, and yet does nothing. I think Roy says it best when he talks of RMR, "It's as good as putting a brick on your dash." I think Aoshi finally got to see that, and i'm glad he got a chance to see it, and is now "Informed." I really do hope somebody does come out with something to help those people in areas where frontal plates are a req. Although, i'm not about to act like something works when it so obviously does not. Why others on this board brag about it, nor endorse it I do not understand. I am not sure, maybe there is $ involved? Who knows. Once again Like I said the other day in another thread to each their own, beleive what you want to beleive, waste your money, see for yourself. We try to inform others and thats all we can do, if you neglect to listen thats your deal, and not our problem.


As for Aoshi, I am just glad you got to see that, I didn't even know you where the one that I had warned so hard against that, untill you mentioned it at the test site. So I am very glad you got a chance to make the test and that you came Aoshi, so that you could see how upsetting that device really is. Although Aoshi even though I can tell you too now want answers as to why people on here endorse it, NMA and I also want answers as do, multipule other old time board members that have seen it fail over and over again. I am just glad that you know now Aoshi, so that you can maybe find something that is effective to protect your front end more since you do have to run that front plate.


Back to working on that video...


Peace to all..

AlPiNe~

[PMoth]

I think a better test for validating the performance of the laser shield would have been 2 runs with the front plate only, no laser shield and no jammer. Then 2 more runs with the laser shield covering the front plate and no jammer. If results were the same, then it's conclusive that the laser shield is a gimmick. I personally have never tried such a test. However, I have used the special signal strength tone indicator setting from the Ultralyte LR to test the IR signature of the front plate with and without the Laser Shield. I assure you that the intensity without the shield was stronger. I've also visually confirmed this with a green laser pointer, red laser pointer, and the flash from a camera. From those three visible tests, I concluded that the reflection WITH the laser shield was still bright as all h3ll but it was NOT as bright as the reflection with no shield. So.... What am I saying, if the laser shield was removed from the front plate with the LI active, then maybe Alpine would have gotten a 1400 ft reading with his LZ1 on Aoshi's car. To say the laser shield is useful by itself would be foolish. If it doesn't at least cut down on the plate's IR signature for you, at least it'll help keep your plate clean!

Again, were these 1000ft pt's obtained while targeting center mass?
All in all, your results are inline with those reported by the man from the land down under, Tactical.

I'll give this test a whirl this weekend. Should be interesting!

Thank you guys again for the report!

[alpinestars_2002795]

We did that, and i've done it personally and the LS does nothing Pmouth take it for what it is ok? Either that or go buy a lidar and check it yourself if your so in disbelief.


AlPiNe~

[languy99]

another thing I wanted to add, people keep saying 35.5 is not good for long distances. We were getting speed readings on vehicles up to the top of the hill, over 3500 feet away. The smaller vehicles were harder to pickup, but if you have a truck or bigger you are screwed. Small vehicles I would say 2500 feet was the max.