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Old 05-17-2007   1 links from elsewhere to this Post. Click to view. #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELVATO
I know this is kinnda late, but maybe what happened, is he went for your passneger headlight, panned around, and hit the other car? Maybe he assumed since you were in the fast lane you were the one going fast?

BTW, when you got hit with the laser, did the other car slow down? Or did he keep on going the same speed? Just curious.
I don’t have a front plate so he must've aimed at the headlights. It was at night so I'm not sure if he could tell I had a front plate or not from his lidar view.

Yes, my radar detector went off and then few seconds later the other car slowed down. Not sure if he had a radar detector as well or he may have just visually spotted the officer since he was clearly visible after we passed the uphill.
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Old 05-17-2007   #12 (permalink)
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Where is this court?

Usually, under advisement means she'll consider some info then find you guilty IMHO.

How about some details?

Did you ask for any public info?

Certifications?
Calibration records?

What kind of LIDAR?

All LIDAR is prone to panning and sweep during readings.

Did you challenge the officers' Visual Estimate?

Did you follow the questions the girl in the MA Berkshires (a sticky) did?

What MGL sections did you challenge?

More info needed.

The fact that this was a black car at night is very much in your favor and should have been stressed as a point in a multi-layered defense with pictures and documentation...........

Lady judge in Newton?

-Suf Daddy
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Speed detection makes errors. I can prove it. REPEATEDLY.
I'm no attorney, any method I describe may not work for you. You use my experience at your own risk. And as my experience, this is not legal advice or be considered legal advice.

These are my opinions made from research and experience, sometimes using the technologies discussed.
NO part of my writings may be copied, or used in other writings, postings, articles or works without my permission.
Quoting from my postings ON THIS WEB SITE is allowed on this website for discussion purposes only.

I rent LIDAR and radar, even w/ speed signs!
LTI Marksman AND Ultralyte 200LR, Stalker LIDAR, Kustom Pro Laser II, Pro Laser III, Laser Atlanta Advantage (R-style) and 6 Doppler's.

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Old 05-17-2007   #13 (permalink)
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SJ:

LIDAR is only as accurate as the distance info the return pulses "give" to the Rx of the LIDAR gun.

The next step is the never discussed "error trapping software" algorithm is next supposed to decide whether the return distances applied to a least squares formula (applied to a sloped line) are "valid".

Here's the problem:

In instant ON, there is NO TRACKING HISTORY, so the first 40 pulses to determine if the object is moving or not has no data to compare to. Here's where most of the errors come into play IMHO.

This is further compounded by the operators manual specifically stating that the operator is to aim and follow one specific target on a vehicle during the entire process...........this on a sloped object moving 88 feet per second @ 60 MPH. This poster claims it was dark. So how good is the aim?

The feedback of the LTI guns is POOR compared to most other guns.
MA uses these extensively, unless its on the MAss Pike so then its Laser Atlanta, but either way the operator is responsible for the accuracy of the unit in their operating it.

Most guns have a dot which doesn't represent the size of the beam it projects.....then you have another vehicle in this example.

Where is the distance info during this clocking?

Its NOT in the LTI HUD, just the speed reading is, which is calculated from the return pulses which in LIDAR, ONLY calculate distance.

Throw this in with the question of where on this vehicle the beam was aimed at, and WHICH of the three beams was reflected back to the unit.
NOBODY can answer THAT question, so there is a problem with how a LIDAR gun collects its data.

RANGE, aim, situation, environment, officers' operation ALL influence the output of a calculated speed reading in ANY LIDAR gun at ANY time.

ADDITIONALLY:
the gun can only display (and consider valid) ANY reading calculation which is within its threshold to display a speed. E.G: 5 MPH - 200 MPH.

ANY smooth data return to the Rx which falls in that category and isn't a jerked / broken data stream / will satisfy the method of least squares projection upon a sloped line graph and calculate a speed.

Its WHY I or anyone with smooth panning / sweep or just jiters from long range aim or vibrations can get readings off pavement, walls, sides of cars and any other return source of variable depths.............

Its why in my demonstrations this past weekend (using a Stalker LIDAR because of its "audio tones" )I was able to get 47MPH off parking lot pavement and a myriad of lower reading off vehicles and other objects.

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Quote:
="stealthJamal"]Laser guns are dead accurate. You were definately doing that speed unless the officer targetted another car to get that reading and then lied saying it was you. Are you saying the officer is lying?
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Speed detection makes errors. I can prove it. REPEATEDLY.
I'm no attorney, any method I describe may not work for you. You use my experience at your own risk. And as my experience, this is not legal advice or be considered legal advice.

These are my opinions made from research and experience, sometimes using the technologies discussed.
NO part of my writings may be copied, or used in other writings, postings, articles or works without my permission.
Quoting from my postings ON THIS WEB SITE is allowed on this website for discussion purposes only.

I rent LIDAR and radar, even w/ speed signs!
LTI Marksman AND Ultralyte 200LR, Stalker LIDAR, Kustom Pro Laser II, Pro Laser III, Laser Atlanta Advantage (R-style) and 6 Doppler's.

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Old 05-17-2007   #14 (permalink)
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Ouch... I hope that's not what under advisement means. She seemed to almost come back with a not responsible decision. I stopped mid-way of my presentation of my case since she seemed to have been satisfied by what I already presented.

I wish you shared these other great suggestions on how to fight this ticket before I went to court, I can't believe I didn't think about the fact my car was black and the vehicle traveling at the higher speed rate was of a lighter color!!!, this piece of info would've definitely been useful. Thanks though!

I will share all the diagrams, pictures and documents I used once the court comes back to me with the NR decision.... hopefully!!
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Old 05-23-2007   #15 (permalink)
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Victory!!! I'm proud to announce that I finally received a letter from court today with an NR (not responsible) finding!!

I’m extremely relieved to get this Lidar ticket out and away from my record. I will post details on what I used for my defense soon!
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Old 05-23-2007   #16 (permalink)
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Congrats. Just curious, did the letter say anything else in terms of why they found that way? I doubt it, but just curious.
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Old 05-24-2007   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by licamell
Congrats. Just curious, did the letter say anything else in terms of why they found that way? I doubt it, but just curious.
No, no details on the letter. It's basically just a copy of the official hearing form that they usually use to either find you responsible and order you to pay the amount or find you NR and dismiss the citation.
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Old 05-29-2007   #18 (permalink)
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Post up. I always want to hear about a W I N N A H !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLK_BNZ
<<SNIP>> I stopped mid-way of my presentation of my case since she seemed to have been satisfied by what I already presented.

I wish you shared these other great suggestions on how to fight this ticket before I went to court, I can't believe I didn't think about the fact my car was black and the vehicle traveling at the higher speed rate was of a lighter color!!!, this piece of info would've definitely been useful. Thanks though!

I will share all the diagrams, pictures and documents I used once the court comes back to me with the NR decision.... hopefully!!
__________________
Speed detection makes errors. I can prove it. REPEATEDLY.
I'm no attorney, any method I describe may not work for you. You use my experience at your own risk. And as my experience, this is not legal advice or be considered legal advice.

These are my opinions made from research and experience, sometimes using the technologies discussed.
NO part of my writings may be copied, or used in other writings, postings, articles or works without my permission.
Quoting from my postings ON THIS WEB SITE is allowed on this website for discussion purposes only.

I rent LIDAR and radar, even w/ speed signs!
LTI Marksman AND Ultralyte 200LR, Stalker LIDAR, Kustom Pro Laser II, Pro Laser III, Laser Atlanta Advantage (R-style) and 6 Doppler's.

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Old 06-05-2007   #19 (permalink)
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Ok, here are the details on my court date appearance.

I arrived to court early in the morning a little nervous and anxious. There were only 3 people present at court and all were State trooper cases. I took a glance at the other side of the court and noticed there are only 2 state troopers. This got me a little excited as I was hoping the missing officer is the one that cited me.

Case 1
The magistrate calls the first defendant which was not me and calls the trooper who pulled him over, Trooper not present. Here goes what might've been my free easy pass down the drain. The magistrate then asks one of the present troopers if he knows the missing trooper and he replies with a yes. He asked if he can give him a ring to find out if he can come to court before he calls the judge into court since there are only 3 cases. The officer steps out to make a call and comes back five minutes later while we all waited for him. He tells the magistrate that the officer had been in an accident and is now in a hospital so he can’t make it. The magistrate declares the first case not responsible because the officer is not present to witness, case dismissed. Easy win for the lucky bastard.

Case 2
The judge is called in for the remaining 2 cases to court. The magistrate calls the other case which was a radar citation. The officer starts to testify from the witness stand about the details of the citation. The defendant interrupts the officer while he’s testifying and asks him:

Defendant: I’m sorry to interrupt, but you were using radar correct?
Officer: yes
Defendant: So you were not using a lidar gun which is target specific? Correct?
Officer: yes

Defendant immediately makes his statement to the judge on how radar uses dopler which scans a general area up to a mile. He was apparently representing someone else so he proceeds to ask the judge to dismiss his client’s citation due to the fact he was using radar and not a lidar gun which is target specific.

Officer makes his last statement stating the vehicle was the only one on the road and that it was 1AM at night.

Judge signs the paper work and declares him not responsible.

I was shocked as I thought in my head the judge is definitely going to nail him with a guilty finding since the officer testified it was the only vehicle on the road and it’s plausible that it could’ve been the only vehicle on the road since it was 1AM.
Also, I felt like my chances in beating my ticket was badly deteriorating as this guy kept mentioning how lidar guns are accurate and how they are target specific unlike radar. He mentioned how lidar guns were good so many times that I almost wanted to stand and object or to smack the guy in the back of his head and tell him his making my case harder and harder.. hahaha.

Case 3 – My case

Now my case is called and the officer is asked to stand on the witness stand. The officer testifies from his notes that he observed a speeding vehicle on the highway then used his lidar gun to get the speed reading. The judge then asks me if I want to ask the officer any questions and I replied yes and that I would also like to share the exhibits I brought with her.

I make my opening statement on how I was not going over the speed limit and that the officer most likely made an honest mistake in pulling over the wrong vehicle.
I then proceeded to share the exhibits I had with the judge. They were basically exhibits A through F with map drawings of a re-enactment of what happened and how his lidar gun clocked the vehicle that was passing me from my right.

Me to the officer as I show him exhibit A: is this where your vehicle was located at the time of the citation?

Officer: I don’t recall

I then proceed to explain to the judge how the officer’s cruiser was located on a downhill part of the highway which would make it impossible for him to observe what was happening beyond 1000 feet. I demonstrated from the exhibits how I observed from my rear view mirror a fast vehicle approaching on my lane on the other side of the hill where the officer had no visual from where he was located.

I then provided the judge with documents on how lidar gun beams get wider as the distance increases ( Thanks to the info I found here on this forum ). I explained to the judge that the officer aimed his lidar gun at my vehicle from over 850 feet which would translate to about 3 feet of laser beam width according to the documents.
The judge reviews the documents and exhibits then asks the officer if he saw the documents that show how laser beam increases over distance. He replies that he have seen something similar before. The judge then takes the documents and tells me that she will use them and assess my case under advisement. She then tells me you’re free to go and that I will receive a decision back in the mail. I was a little confused as I have never heard of this before.

2 days later, I receive a Not Responsible letter in the mail. I think the judge couldn’t make a decision on the spot because she didn’t want to send the trooper’s home completely defeated on all cases as I was the only case left and all other cases were already dismissed.

I think a major part of my success in beating the ticket is:
--- The clear and detailed diagrams.
--- Question the credibility of the lidar gun
--- And maybe… because I didn’t request a discovery, the officer was less prepared?? The officer on the hearing is the one who spelled out the distance to what the citing officer clocked me from. And to me, that was the only crucial information I needed at the time. I wish I did a discovery though just to be sure which Lidar gun was used.


Here are the documents and exhibits I used:
[/img]

I still have other documents I used but I'm not sure how to post it. send me you your e-mail and I'll be more than happy to send it over if anyone here is interested
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Old 06-06-2007   #20 (permalink)
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its speculation but id guess prolly incompetant witness since the officer couldnt remember.
congrats. you were prepared.
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