LIDAR Ticket Win in CA

[Maestro]

Nice win!! and Trail by Ambush even Better...

As part of trail by ambush they recommend you have the prosecution rest their case, and only then you do call the officer as a witness and not cross examine them because after that point they can not introduce anymore evidence i.e. the Laser Cert. If they do not present it as part of their direct question and you do not cross they can not offer it as part of your direct questions. This is all court procedures which is good to know some time.

But it still worked in your favor...

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by austinado16

All I can say is that speed is a big contributing factor. Hate to sound like a broken record, but it's true. Imagine taking down the speed limit signs and just letting the chips fall where they may. It'd be all fun and games until you pulled out of your driveway and got T-boned by some guy flying through your neighborhood at 50. Or get rear-ended by some guy doing 60+ down the main drag.e

I agree that speed plays a big part in accidents, but itis not initial factor bit a contributing factor like you pointed out. The initial factor is the person driving or lack of understanding of how to drive.

BTW, the Autobahn in german has no speed limits and the accidence rate per million miles driven is less than most Highway in the US, why and this is document without months of training and also showing they can control a car at high speeds on the Autobahn. If the US did the same, we would enjoy the low accident rate that German has.

There is Case law I had posed where the judge basically said even if you were the best driver on the road it did not matter since laws are written for the least experience drive on the road and therefore you have to follow the same rules as the worst drive on the road.

[austinado16]

Originally Posted by Maestro

Nice win!! and Trail by Ambush even Better...

As part of trail by ambush they recommend you have the prosecution rest their case, and only then you do call the officer as a witness and not cross examine them because after that point they can not introduce anymore evidence i.e. the Laser Cert. If they do not present it as part of their direct question and you do not cross they can not offer it as part of your direct questions. This is all court procedures which is good to know some time.

But it still worked in your favor...

Ha! "Trial By Ambush!" I love it!

Excellent tip on forcing their hand by [meekly] asking if they rest their case. That's a fantastic touch! Oh wait, you're saying that I then wouldn't cross examine, I'd call him as a witness and then ask him direct questions. Beautiful. Please fill my head with more of this!!

I'm sure my trial could have been a 5min affair had I known what I was doing, but at the same time, I have to admit......it was a sweet little show as-was.

[bunny]

wow! thank you for sharing your story! most of the winner stories here are a little bit less challenging and seeing you beat your odds like you did is awesome.

now, i don't know where the statistic is (or if it is even real) but once wasn't there an experiment where all of the speed limit signs were removed in an area and it turned out that the average speed of traffic slowed down in the more dangerous areas, and it ended up being safer with less crashes and such?

i'm all for speed limits in non freeway areas (anything without an on and off ramp), but I think most (not all of course) freeways could drop the speed limit sign system we currently have and instead have signs that in force minimum speed limits more clearly and the maximum. I know the faster a person drives the higher the chance of a fatality in a crash vs living after a crash which is an issue, but I also know the danger is the difference in speed between the drivers. On some of the freeways here even if the speed limit is 65mph driving over 75 is dangerous because most of the drivers go 60 (101 north of the bay), but like on i-5 from oakland to the grape vine I've seen groups of cars going literally 140mph in the right conditions with the speed limit as 70.

i've always wondered what it would be like if in the new york, new jersey area where the freeway breaks into separate parts with the idea that if there is traffic that effects the left side, then the right side will not see it and keep moving freely, but it doesn't work. anyways, they have these freeways that imho would be perfect to have in the left lanes a min speed limit of 65 and in the right lanes a max speed limit of 65, or something along those lines. that way the difference of speed is not a danger and people can generally drive the speed they want to.

[austinado16]

Funny you mention 101 north of the SF Bay. As I read that first part of your statement, the place that immediately came to mind was how people drive in the Marin to Santa Rosa stretch of 101. What's going on up there?

[bunny]

that is exactly where I am talking about.

i'm not 100% sure what is up with the area but once I got a speeding ticket there, yet it was rush hour bumper to bumper. I did trial by dec and lost. It was the only time I've ever lost to a speeding ticket too. Thank god for traffic school.

I've gotten 3 tickets in the last 5 years. 2 I won, and the third was in marin. I bought this book called how to beat a speeding ticket, or something like that, and in the book there is one chapter just for marin let alone anywhere else. I was surprised, but it said a lot of scary things like how marin county was breaking so many state laws with its law enforcement that the state had to manually go in and do all this stuff. I was skimming so I didn't read into it much but from first hand experience it was terrible!

First of all, to do trial by dec you have to mail it in a min of 10 days in advance I think it is. Once you have a speeding ticket in marin it is 7 days until you are suppose to be in court and usually 4 to 6 days for the mail to arrive. Second, the clerks LIE, and I mean they LIE up and down. Every single thing they say is an absolute lie. All the clerks I've talked to in other areas have been wonderful but in marin I talked to about 6 to 8 clerks. They lied to me soo much. The first time I called I asked for an extension on my court date. She told me I would have to have a reason. I said that the state of california grants a minimum of one court date extension by law. The lady then said, "to bad for you" and hung up on me. I called right after that and got another clerk. She fought with me for around 30 minutes then gave me the extension so I could trial by dec but I had to start stating laws to her. I then asked for a link to the trial by dec paperwork and she told me it was illegal to do in marin, but the rest of california is ok and they would fine me if I tried such a bad bad thing. I then asked her if discovery info should be requested at the chp office or from a clerk and she told me some bs about how discovery is for criminal court cases only. I then started stating laws and she hung up on me. The third lady told me that if i wanted to fight in court it was required by law that I would have to pay for a lawyer. Every single time I started stating laws I always was asked the same questions, "are you an attorney?" no "are you studying law school?" no "there is no need for you to press this issue."

After I lost the trial by dec I went in to get a copy of the officers citation. I went to the traffic division and asked for it and the clerk told me that it was classified info. I then said my name is on the case and I have a right to that info. Then they told me that it was up in records. I said, "no it is a traffic innocent. I've already learned from the dmv years ago how you play your games. get me a copy of my little piece of paper." but the response was, 'it isn't here. you have to go walk far far away.' i then asked if he would call the records place and check. the clerk said no. i then grumbled and as I was walking away the clerk threatened me and said he would get me removed if I say anything inappropriate at him. I ignored him and kept walking. I went up there and they were super nice and told me it was a traffic case so it is where I was already. i then asked if they could call for me and make sure the paper is found before I walk all the way back to save time. the lady did so then I asked if there was any way I could contact her over the phone if i needed anything else. she told me her name and number and wrote it down on a piece of paper. i thanked her and went back down. i went back to the same clerk and asked for the paper. he told me it is in records. i told him that his boss got a call to print me out the officers declaration of my court case. he just eyed me for a min then went back for 15 or so minutes. he came back and told me that there is no paper for me and i should go home. i then called the lady and had her talk to him directly. he argued with her then finally pulled out the paperwork of my case. there was 10 to 15 papers and one was obviously the officers letter. i asked for a copy from it and he told me he couldn't see it and kept flipping past.I told him I have all day for games. he then looked over the court case, read the whole thing, read my declaration, read his, then told me I can't get a copy because it is classified. i told him to go get his boss. he told me he didn't have a boss. i told him i saw him talking to his boss and then stated their name. he finally went back. 6 to 10 minutes later he came back, grabbed the paper, then went back for about 15 minutes then came back with a copy. he told me it would be 50 cents. i pulled out a dollar. he told me there is no change and he wouldn't accept a dollar and wouldn't give it to me unless I had exactly 50 cents. i then told him to make two copies of the paper. he told me no. i said he should keep the dollar and give me my paper. he finally did so.

keep in mind I'm only mentioning half of my clerk encounters there.

once I read the paper I was astonished. the officer had a template letter he used for me. he said that saw me, estimated my speed, shot lidar at me, got that speed, then followed me and paced me for at least a mile, then pulled me and the other car over.

it was a super short letter but it basically covered every loop hole you can think of which pissed me off. not him covering his ass so he would win the case, but the fact that the paper was a 100% lie. there was not one word of truth in the paper. also, it was obvious he screwed up the template because the last sentence said he pulled over two people which did not match the rest. and of course, if you haven't guessed already, he only pulled me over and no one else.

the thing about marin before it turns into 2 lanes driving up to santa rosa (I live in the santa rosa area) is in the very left hand lane is the only lane I've ever seen them pull people over in. also, I've seen people in the left hand lane going slower then everyone else on the road (like 50mph slow) and still get pulled over for speeding, yet if i am in the middle or the right hand lane I could be going 80 and be fine. next time you're in the area and you're going northbound down one of those hills look at the left carpool lane. you might see one car max, if even that.

the second i get into marin my speed drops from the average 76, 77 mph I do down to 68 to 70. you don't have to speed to get a ticket there. if you stand out you get a ticket, and they lie so bad it is impossible to win a case, yet if you hire someone they all of a sudden back off.


i can go on and on and on. it is by far the most corrupt area (driving wise) in all of california.

[austinado16]

Unbelievable!!!

So now I know why everyone drives the way they do up there. They've got the fear!!

[bunny]

honestly not sure if that is it or not, but in certain areas I am afraid to go 5 over the psl.


where about are you located at?


edit: er, central cost. like san luis obisbo? (i know, i can't spell)

[Suf Daddy]

California is a bit different than the rest of the US, but generally one thing is true:

DISCOVERY is for criminal proceedings. These are fines and sentences where you can loose your freedom to jail time in the schedule of penalties.
ONE perfect example is OUI / DUI / DWI.

Public info request is a similar method in a CIVIL case. CIVIL cases generally involve FINES and PRIVELDGES, not your freedom

Most of the time the clerks know this hair splitting criteria, and while they are technically "correct", (WRT: DISCOVERY) there aren't going to offer you any legal advice, or "help" you out.

Your ticket makes more work for them.

IF you haven't reviewed your state's court procedures, and don't know the differences between how things work in your area, seek legal counsel.
< Get a TRAFFIC ATTORNEY >

NOT ALL States give the motorist two chances.
New Hampshire is a ONE shot state. There are others.

So keep this in mind.....................

-Suf Daddy

[austinado16]

Would it be worth setting up a section of this forum that organises the experiences of members by state also? In other words, still have this main "catch-all" How-To-Beat-Your-Ticket area, but then ask that people copy their posts to the area that contains "Experiences by State."

Would something like that work?

I guess my thinking is, then a person who has a ticket in CA could go to the CA section and read about how to do things specifically in CA.

In my own searches here, prior to my trial, I found a ton of info from people back east, but not much at all from recent CA cases. Don't get me wrong, it was all very good info, but some of it didn't pertain to how things work here.....like how some people have gone in and negotiated with the officer, or with some court clerk (or whatever you call them) and had their cases sort of "pre-settled". While here in Cali it's: Plead either in writing or in person.......request and then do a trial by decleration/or get a court date for a trial......then hear back on the trial by dec......or show up and argue your case in court before a judge or traffic commissioner, and get a ruling.