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  1. #1
    Longsnowsm
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    Default Viper veil question

    Veil Guy,
    I was reading through the 2005 SML results with Veil on the Viper. I see that Veil was applied to the headlights, but was it applied to the foglamps as well? The photo's don't show them clear enough to tell. Were the foglamps also Veil covered? Also what about the Dodge logo on the hood(IE anything shining)? Thanks.

    Longsnowsm

  2. #2
    Manufacturer
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
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    Bozeman, MT
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    3,205

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    We believed we got everything, but it is entirely possible, we missed something on the vehicle - like the metallic oilpan that sits visibly below the bumper (and is exposed). We found out how exposed when we hit a rock and took it out [of service] for a day.

    Why? Because, if you notice that the Stalker LZ1 had identical readings whether or not the plate was on or off the vehicle. This suggests that the gun was picking something else off of the vehicle that we inadvertantly missed or not treated. Since VEIL is technically a passive product, we only eliminate laser reflection on what we actually coat.

    Unfortunately, the officers did not target the vehicle - as they did the previous years - with either headlight shots or plate shots. This coupled with the fact that it was cloudy/overcast that early morning meant a wholesale increase in successful targeting distances.

    What's done is done and, unfortunately, we can't go back in time to reconfirm our application, re-test in better lighting conditions or in a manner that was more consistent with the active laser jammer test with individual plate or headlight shots and we had only learned of our numbers several weeks after the test [from Roy's own posting]. Had they been communicated to us at the time, we would have attempted to address whatever the issues were on the spot.

    At least we have the last two years of performance (much better) documented from SML , thorough reviews from RadarTest.com, the recent Guys of Lidar work, and real-world experiences from members of this forum which better demonstrate our true potential.

    We find it interesting that the percentages of reduction are almost indentical to what they were last year, even though the absolute numbers aren't as stellar.

    Appreciate your question, though.

    Veil Guy 8)
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  3. #3
    Longsnowsm
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    Thanks for the fast reply. I was just curious since it wasn't mentioned in the text of the tests what was and wasn't covered. It sounded like it might have been a possiblity that these other things might have been overlooked. Like you said the results were still good, but not stellar. Thanks for your post in another thread explaining why you felt that the Viper was being picked up so far out. That really does make sense.

    I have read here on the forum that the color of a vehicle makes a difference in the distance it can be detected/clocked. Has anyone tested this theory with several identical make/models of a car in different colors? Baseline some distances and see just what kind of differences there are in just the color of the car? I would really be curious to see some results from basic tests like that. Do you know if anything like this has been done? Thanks again.

    Longsnowsm

  4. #4
    Manufacturer
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    Dec 2004
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    I appreciate your questioning of the results, than just a simple wholesale dismissal of VEIL.

    In fact you really got us thinking about this and we appreciate it.

    To answer your other question, I don't think we have actually compared the same model of vehicles only of different colours and I think it is a very good question. Perhaps we could do this in the future.

    Not withstanding unusual reflective objects, we believe the vehicle shape plays a critical role (perhaps the most critical role) even more than colour.

    We have found that VEIL does exceptionally well with vehicles like late-model Cavalier's regardless of colour - even metallic silver.

    Seth has had several JTG experiences in the real-world (against laser police traps) and Jason's recent videos shows very good results with Veil only on his vehicle as a lone countermeasure. His experiences are consistent with our experience with a Cavalier in the 2004 SML test which was also silver metallic.

    Perhaps such a test is in order. It probably isn't good enough to simply compare one particular make/model and colour because the shape, we believe, is the overriding factor. Different vehicles with different sets of colours would likely me more telling.

    Of course colour is really only important after a VEIL treatment as the headlights, foglights, plate are really the most visible elements regardless of vehicle shape/colour.

    Its going to take time to do and SML is not really set-up to do such testing.

    Interesting thought, though and one the merits future attention, IMHO.

    Veil Guy 8)
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  5. #5
    Longsnowsm
    Guest

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    The other thing that immediately comes to mind is the area of reflection on a vehicle. The number of square inches of headlight area on a given vehicle, plate area, and other reflective surfaces. The Cavalier has a fairly small headlight, but run another car with a very similar size and profile such as a Ford Focus with those large headlights and the results would most likely be very different due to the size of the area you have to defend against laser. I am just thinking off the cuff, but I would bet a pattern of data could be developed if the amount of reflective area is calculated and then compared vehicle to vehicle. I would imagine a pattern would develop that would help determine the countermeasures and distances that a given vehicle becomes a target. I would love to see that data developed and I don't think it would be too hard to calcuate the number of square inches of area on a given vehicle/profile. Obviously the various sizes of vehicles would also be another interesting test. I think unless you can compare apples to apples as far as amount of reflective area it becomes tough to figure out what was and wasn't a benefit with a countermeasure or other variables such as vehicle size/profile.

    Sorry for the endless rambling, but I can see the need for a lot of in depth testing that develops some baselines and general rules of thumb to help consumers figure out what will or won't work for them and the best application for thier particular vehicle. I hope we get the chance to do some more of this type of testing since it doesn't appear that SML is really geared up to do this type of exhaustive work on a given area when they have so many tests to run and such broad areas of expertise. This should be fun to explore more in depth.

    Thanks again for all the great feedback.

    Drive safe, have fun,
    Longsnowsm

  6. #6
    Founder of Stealthvation
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    Dec 2004
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    "Unfortunately, the officers did not target the vehicle - as they did the previous years - with either headlight shots or plate shots."


    That is really disturbing because this type of test defeats the whole purpose of Veil. It would be like testing an umbrella. Well if the water is not coming down vertically but is shot at you horizontally well you still got soaked but this does not mean that the umbrella did not do its job. It was not designed to protect you from horizontal rain but was designed to protect you from rain coming down on you vertically. Same concept can be applied here. Very disapointed with a lot of testing done at SML
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  7. #7
    Longsnowsm
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    The reason I mention the vehicle profile, and color, as well as reflective area is due to the apparent correlation to distances locked when variables such as color were mentioned as easier to lock. I realize that the LEO's are not directly targeting just the body of the vehicle directly. I was just thinking of a flashlight analogy. If laser paints an 18" spot on the front of a vehicle at 500' then it isn't just the plate or just the headlight that is involved in getting the speed lock as explained and witnessed by folks that have noticed that light colored cars are easier to lock a speed than a dark colored car. Obviously other things are affecting a reading if the color makes a difference.


    Has anyone calculated the reflective area on a given vehicle and tried to correlate that data to other vehicles with the same reflective area?
    IE measure the headlight area on a car and determine how many square inches your looking at. Then take that info and look at data for similar cubic inches to see how closely that data matches. If we have done this I would love to see what you guys came up with.

    As Veil Guy just mentioned the shape of the car I think is an obvious factor as an angled hood would tend to reflect more up and away rather than directly back at the shooter(just how much of a factor is yet to be determined and cause for yet more tests).

    So I am really thinking we are dealing with a significant combination of factors. I think it would be very interesting to see two vehicles with the same cubic inches of reflective area, but with two completely different profiles such as a compact truck compared to a compact car and make them the same color to rule out variables. I would like to see how much of a reduction of the lock range is with just the difference in the angles of the hood/lights. Also I think a set of speed/distance readings for various cubic inch measurements of reflective areas is warranted. I am thinking that this number may be more linear than we think(possibly far more relevant than many other factors). I would at least like to test that theory. If it is in fact linear then it should be much easier to develop a data sheet for distances that are common for that profile of vehicle. To the degree the distance locked is affected by the angle of a hood will be interesting to know. I would think that with that data Veil could then tell a given customer that under ideal conditions you could expect a reduction of distance locked of approximately <#-#> base on your vehicle.

    HappyA$$, I agree the more I think about the SML tests the more discouraged I get. The data just isn't complete, the range of tests are incomplete, the methodology is in question. I am no rocket scientist, but if I can figure out how to setup some protocols/tests that eliminate variables then SML can as well. I think there are some fairly staight forward scientific approaches that can be used to analyze a vehicles vunerability to LIDAR. I realize SML is trying to be all things to all people with this set of tests, but what it really has turned into is a marketing event and more and more relevant info is lost.

    If I can find an affordable LIDAR gun I may just try some of these theories out myself. I don't think most of this stuff is really a mystery. Hopefully I haven't bored you guys to tears with my rambling... I just find this stuff fascinating... And fun!

    Oops, I just realized it would be square inches and not cubic... Dang it! :shock:

    Drive safe, have fun,
    Longsnowsm

  8. #8
    Newcomer
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    Mar 2005
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    wisconsin
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    Right on LongsonowSM!

    Chris

 

 

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