Would Veil on the inside of the HL work good? Will it burst into flames in the oven?
I'm going to end up making some custom headlights so I will be opening them up and I was thinking of applying some veil to the inside.
I'm thinking it would be a good idea as it would be twice as hard for the laser to bounce back, if I put it on both sides.
Any comments on that?
I'm also not sure how hot it gets inside projector headlights so I'm not sure if this a potential fire hazard either?
Would veil take the heat? When I seal the headlights back up they have to go back in the oven for like 10minutes @ 250 or so I believe. I'm not 100% sure yet but its around there.
Re: Would Veil on the inside of the HL work good?
I'm going to give a brief response, fully expecting TSI to come in here with a full response, packed full of references, links, and citation sources.
Basically, the only possible problem might be that by treating only the inside, you will leave the outside plastic untreated. As far as I've seen, most plastic headlights give off their own amount of reflection (ever see reflections of surroundings on headlights when walking by a bunch of parked cars?) Granted, the amount of reflection is small compared to the real killer, the reflectors/projectors.
But, I guess when you are relying purely on passive countermeasures, every little bit helps. :)
BTW, I don't remember if you told me, but what color car do you have?
Re: Would Veil on the inside of the HL work good?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ELVATO
I'm going to give a brief response, fully expecting TSI to come in here with a full response, packed full of references, links, and citation sources.
Basically, the only possible problem might be that by treating only the inside, you will leave the outside plastic untreated. As far as I've seen, most plastic headlights give off their own amount of reflection (ever see reflections of surroundings on headlights when walking by a bunch of parked cars?) Granted, the amount of reflection is small compared to the real killer, the reflectors/projectors.
But, I guess when you are relying purely on passive countermeasures, every little bit helps. :)
BTW, I don't remember if you told me, but what color car do you have?
Black! :rock::thumb2: ...... but huge arse headlights with the whole reflective chrome thing going on all inside. That is why I'm going to Retro Fit some Projectors in so its just like a 3" piece of glass & a colored turn signal bulb. The rest will be black.
I also was meaning putting it on Both sides. First I would put it inside then I would do the outside also!
Also I edited my first post to include this question.....
Would veil take the heat? When I seal the headlights back up they have to go back in the oven for like 10minutes @ 250 or so I believe. I'm not 100% sure yet but its around there.
Here I made this picture... Its basically what I'm going to do. If the Plan is to go stealth, Might as well do it Right!! :rock::thumb2:
http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/o...bum/MyGoal.jpg
Re: Would Veil on the inside of the HL work good?
yea, sounds hardcore, I mean especially if you're worried about rain and what not, at leas you know the inside countermeasure is still there.
Re: Would Veil on the inside of the HL work good?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lucky225
yea, sounds hardcore, ................
HL penetration? Whats that?!
:dirol::tongue: :dontknow::Banane42: :lol:
Still wondering If I have to worry about it bursting into flames or some kind of reaction when in the oven!
:hairfire: = Would be Bad :lol: ......... So I would stick to the outside if its of real concern.
Re: Would Veil on the inside of the HL work good?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ELVATO
I'm going to give a brief response, fully expecting TSI to come in here with a full response, packed full of references, links, and citation sources.
Basically, the only possible problem might be that by treating only the inside, you will leave the outside plastic untreated. As far as I've seen, most plastic headlights give off their own amount of reflection (ever see reflections of surroundings on headlights when walking by a bunch of parked cars?) Granted, the amount of reflection is small compared to the real killer, the reflectors/projectors.
But, I guess when you are relying purely on passive countermeasures, every little bit helps. :)
^ ELVATO, bro, stop short-selling yourself. Your knowledge in this area is extensive, and to be quite frank, I'm honored that you'd think so highly of me. :o
Cobra, ELVATO is right-on. This has been proposed before, not of only headlights (which I don't believe anyone has yet done - but more frequently, of plate covers.
Indeed, IIRC, even The VEIL Guy has, himself, said as much before: that to put VEIL on the inside of such a clear/transmissive surface certainly will return with positive results (as it's the reflected IR that passes through the covering that will get "chopped"), but that the initial, smooth, untreated surface will indeed cause a not-un-noticeable handicap, when compared to a direct application of VEIL, for the very reason that ELVATO stated above.
Is two coats better than one? Quantitatively, yes. But as The VEIL Guy himself has said many times before - both with G2 and G4 - that the result isn't the "sum" of the layers, that it's not additive. Instead, it's that first coat that gives the most performance, with additional coats, yes, helping further trim LIDAR returns (and darkening VEIL's overall aesthetics), but also increasingly diminishing light output.
So, in combining that, with what you'd mentioned, yourself, above, about VEIL "taking the heat," in terms of re-sealing the headlight unit, I'm very hesitant to recommend doing what you'd proposed.
I've "shaked and baked" my fair share of headlight housings (my current vehicle's housings have been opened and re-sealed 3 times, and I'm not even counting my other cars :p), and yes, typically, something akin to the temperatures/times you've stated is used to re-seal.
To be quite frank, I honestly do not know if G4 can "take the heat" - or will that somehow alter its chemical and/or physical properties?
That's a question for The VEIL Guy, and him alone. :o
Similarly, as you've said - and this is *NOT* something that I'd ever thought of - is whether or not the heat from within the housing will somehow affect VEIL, too. I'm honestly not so concerned about fire, although, I have to admit, that's a possibility that perhaps The VEIL Guy should address, as, again, I do not know the intimate chemical constituency of VEIL, but rather, I'm more worried about the persistent low-level-heat somehow "cooking" VEIL and again potentially changing its chemical/physical properties, as well as whether such heat exposure will cause VEIL - even "cured" - to "outgass," and what this might do to your lighting elements as well as the optical lens of your headlamp, too.
---
As for the projector:
Have a look at both this this reference post http://www.radardetector.net/forums/430603-post12.html as well as the comments of mine to be found on The VEIL Guys running thread regarding his IR videos http://www.radardetector.net/forums/...r-veil-g4.html - here, especially my post on page 3, post #27, which detailed, for video VII in the series:
Quote:
(3)
Time-mark 5:30 to 5:50
Look at the projector headlight lens.
As with the optical collimator lens of the various jammers, it’s just serving as a huge collector of IR light, and it’s flaring up, just like a cat’s eye in the dark.
Just as with the visible-light flash-photography demonstration, it’s seen, really clearly here, that projector headlights, just because they’re physically smaller than comparable reflector units, is no less of a threat, and perhaps even more, since they “concentrate” light, including that coming off the reflectors physically *behind* their focusing lens.
This can also be seen, earlier, at time points 3:23 to 3:35, for the fog-lights.
To assume that the projectors will somehow simply be better, I think, is dangerous.
In every such visible-light (flash), NightShot, or IR-enhanced photo, it's seen that the projector lens essentially amplifies the reflector elements that are itself buried behind it, serving as an optical collimator, and making for a very discernable "point weakness."
It's very hard to say, I think, whether, truly, one is necessarily better than the other, particularly as this is an area that exists, now, without any significant quantitative data.
Qualitatively/subjectively, look at the C6 Corvettes. While previous-generation 'Vettes have been known for their "natural stealth," the C6 somehow "lost" this natural capability, with enthusiast able to lock-on with police LIDAR, under testing conditions, at distances easily greater than a quarter-mile.
Given what little has changed, in the profile of the C5 and the C6, one would imagine that previous-data gathered for the C5, and even C4, 'Vettes should hold-true for the C6 - but that's not the case, and it can be said that, really, the only significant change to-note are those little "blips" of projector headlight lenses, now always directly visible.
So before you switch, be sure that, first and foremost, you're getting acutal lighting benefits from the change-over (you mentioned, specifically, the word "retrofit" in your post, so I am assuming that you mean that you're considering a full-optics HID-retrofit for your application - if this is the case, then I think you're good-to-go :), but if what you're thinking is that fitting the plug-and-play projector headlight in place of the factory units on your vehicle will somehow magically definitely make your lighting output better, please be careful, as many aftermarket projector headlamps are not manufactured to anywhere near OEM standards, and actually offer much INFERIOR lighting, even compared to their factory-stock reflector counterparts).
Re: Would Veil on the inside of the HL work good?
BTW: it is very possible - and an accepted alternative - to re-seal opened headlight housings using a heat-gun.
It's not a method that I typically recommend, though, especially for first-timers, as it does have a tendency to be more "dangerous," given the focal, high-level heat.
It requires judicious use, and experience - and even then, continued care while doing so (yes, I've heard of "old-hands" doing this, and ruining the lens/housing, from just a moment's distraction).
Furthermore, the physical/chemical properties of VEIL still worries me....yes, this is *focal* heat, but it'll still spread along the lens/housing.
Re: Would Veil on the inside of the HL work good?
I think performance returns by doing such a thing would be minimal, at best.
The reason, it is the rest of the vehicle that remains untreated (ie; residual laser cross section) that really contributes to the degree of your stealth nature.
Making your headlights even "darker" to the IR will likely hot improve whatever punchthroughs you experience with Veil.
If one removed the lights completely or had pop-down lights (when closed) the vehicle would still be speed readable with a police laser at some point.
More doesn't mean better.
In the case of Steve's personal Civic, we could re-Veil his lights and plate cover multiple times, but his residual hotspots would still hurt us in the end.
That's the point I am making here.
Your best bet is to focus on other parts of your vehicle which could contribute to your laser reflection profile.
Veil Guy :cool:
Re: Would Veil on the inside of the HL work good?
Okay, Thanks for the reply Veil Guy! :)
I guess I'll just apply it to the outside.
There isn't any thing reflective on my car otherwise except maybe the intercooler but its a small small one stock. about half size of a full one and unpolished. Might spray it w/ black radiator paint once I get jammers & veil the lights.
As I see though in the " Identifying and Eliminating Hotspots in the IR with Veil G4" post suggested by Tsi I could be wrong. I will defiantly try to identify hot spots once I make my Jammer purchase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TSi+WRX
^ ELVATO,
As for the projector:
So before you switch, be sure that, first and foremost, you're getting acutal lighting benefits from the change-over (you mentioned, specifically, the word "retrofit" in your post, so I am assuming that you mean that you're considering a full-optics HID-retrofit for your application - if this is the case, then I think you're good-to-go :), but if what you're thinking is that fitting the plug-and-play projector headlight in place of the factory units on your vehicle will somehow magically definitely make your lighting output better, please be careful, as many aftermarket projector headlamps are not manufactured to anywhere near OEM standards, and actually offer much INFERIOR lighting, even compared to their factory-stock reflector counterparts).
No I wasn't going to do a Full HID nor was I going to use one of those "Kits" as I am fully aware they are a bad idea & you just end up blinding other drivers. I was going to take a real Bi-Xenon projector headlight from another car and install it in my headlight. My Stock HLs aren't even projectors, they're old style reflector halogen type. Look @ the picture .. you see what I mean...
... But what you are saying Normal Projector Headlights actually end up acting like a huge collector making it just as bad if not worse of a hot spot? But if I went with True HID lamps it would be good? The hot spots in that thead you linked me to just looked nasty!
If that is the case I might just put off on this project for a while since I was doing it on an extreme budget but if there no benefit unless I go true HID well that will be another 200-250 on top. Making my $300 project a $525+ which in my mind doesn't have a good $/Benefit ratio. I like the look for sure but @ that cost it moves far down my list. (I'm glad I don't have to run front plates)
Re: Would Veil on the inside of the HL work good?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThE_JOkeR
No I wasn't going to do a Full HID nor was I going to use one of those "Kits" as I am fully aware they are a bad idea & you just end up blinding other drivers. I was going to take a real Bi-Xenon projector headlight from another car and install it in my headlight.
^ Ah, that, my friend - what you're going to attempt to do, lifting the HID setup, complete, including the optics, from an OEM application to graft into your application, in the hobby of automotive headlighting - is actually called a "full optics HID retrofit." ;)
And yes, with respect to both lighting performance as well as consideration to oncoming drivers, that's the right way to go about it. :)
Quote:
My Stock HLs aren't even projectors, they're old style reflector halogen type. Look @ the picture .. you see what I mean...
Yes, I understood that.
Remember, like JDS, I'm not only an auto-enthusiast, I'm also an automotive lighting enthusiast. ;)
Quote:
... But what you are saying Normal Projector Headlights actually end up acting like a huge collector making it just as bad if not worse of a hot spot? But if I went with True HID lamps it would be good? The hot spots in that thead you linked me to just looked nasty!
If that is the case I might just put off on this project for a while since I was doing it on an extreme budget but if there no benefit unless I go true HID well that will be another 200-250 on top. Making my $300 project a $525+ which in my mind doesn't have a good $/Benefit ratio. I like the look for sure but @ that cost it moves far down my list. (I'm glad I don't have to run front plates)
No I am not suggesting that you should do an "improper" HID setup - ballast, ignitor, bulb - "plug-and-play" setup into your OEM reflector housing. Indeed, that would most likely cause great offense to oncoming drivers :eek::( ....and also, based on the vehicle you drive, it could even gather rather unkind attention from your local enforcers. :mad:
But yes, if you'll again read through and look through those reference posts that I cited above, you can well see for yourself that the projector lenses (it does not matter if the lens has, behind it, an HID light source, or, like my vehicle, has an incandescent halogen light source - it's the lens itself, combined with the reflectors behind it [which is present in both HID as well as incandescent halogen setups] that causes this effect) themselves do act as optical collimators, and that it does flare brightly, under either light photography or IR illumination.
The question of "what hurts more" - a projector setup or a reflector...that's very hard to say.
Both visible-light photography as well as IR currently shows that, even with VEIL, the projector lens is a distinct hot spot, and that it is a very, very "hot" one, at that, whereas the large dish-type reflectors of reflector-type headlamps do seem to "dim" quite a bit with VEIL coverage.
But exactly how does this translate - in terms of which is worse...a smaller, denser/hotter target, or a larger, but much more diffuse?
That's hard to say.