View Full Version : Can cops read our onboard computers?
John_in_NC
06-15-2007, 06:41 PM
Someone told me that cops may extract speed information from our on-board computers that will tell them what our top speed was for the past 17 or so runs of the car. They may use this if involved in an accident.
Anyone know if this is true?
aradarnut
06-15-2007, 06:52 PM
If your airbag deploys, the SDM (airbag controller) records information about the occurance, that will indicate many variables (veh speed, brakes on, seatbelt on, etc...). I'm sure it varies by manufacturer as far as what and how far back the info goes. And the police can obtain this info.
Buford T. Justice
06-15-2007, 07:36 PM
Someone told me that cops may extract speed information from our on-board computers that will tell them what our top speed was for the past 17 or so runs of the car. They may use this if involved in an accident.
Anyone know if this is true?
I'm no attorney, but for some reason I cant believe the information they extract from your car would be allowed in the court room or even legal for that matter. ITS your car!!
insertquarter
06-15-2007, 07:38 PM
TS your car!!
Warrant Much?
Buford T. Justice
06-15-2007, 07:50 PM
TS your car!!
Warrant Much?
I don't live in the Appalachia Mountains. Please explain?
See this is why we need portable EMP generators to wipe out those computers in the event of an emergency...
insertquarter
06-15-2007, 07:53 PM
Waz Tryin 2 Say that Juzt Becauze Itz Your Car Doezn't Mean They Can't Look @ It. I'm Sure There'z Some Way 4 them 2 Either Simply Extract the Information With or Without Some Form of a Warrant, Probably Due 2 Some Vague Law or Something...
TS your car!!Warrant Much?I don't live in the Appalachia Mountains. Please explain?What? There are mountains in Florida?
Why didn't anybody tell me this?
ITS your car!!
Unfortunately the state considers that it is NOT really you car.
I know of a case in Canada that the proof of the speed was extracted from a GM car and used in court , it was a fatal accident and the accused was condamned based of that proof.....
As soon your car stepped on the open road ...Big Brother takes over :shock:
Buford T. Justice
06-15-2007, 07:57 PM
Waz Tryin 2 Say that Juzt Becauze Itz Your Car Doezn't Mean They Can't Look @ It. I'm Sure There'z Some Way 4 them 2 Either Simply Extract the Information With or Without Some Form of a Warrant, Probably Due 2 Some Vague Law or Something...
It would be interesting to know if this information has ever been used in the court system during a trial.
But I agree... they probably do look at it, just not sure if its allowing during a court case.
insertquarter
06-15-2007, 07:57 PM
What? There are mountains in Florida?
Why didn't anybody tell me this?
U Never Saw the Mountainz Off the Turnpike?
O Nevermind, Thoze r Landfillz :lol: ...
insertquarter
06-15-2007, 07:58 PM
As soon your car stepped on the open road ...Big Brother takes over :shock:
More Like as Soon as yr Born :roll: ...
Unfortunately the state considers that it is NOT really you car.
[...]
As soon your car stepped on the open road ...Big Brother takes over :shock:Uh...in what non-socialist state is this true (i.e. not Scandinavia)?
If this were true, why would a LEO need permission or probably cause to search "your" vehicle?
What? There are mountains in Florida?
Why didn't anybody tell me this?U Never Saw the Mountainz Off the Turnpike?
O Nevermind, Thoze r Landfillz :lol: ...We always called those ones "Mount Trashmore" :lol:
jimbonzzz
06-15-2007, 08:02 PM
It would be interesting to know if this information has ever been used in the court system during a trial.
But I agree... they probably do look at it, just not sure if its allowing during a court case.
Yep:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-05-15-boxes-usat_x.htm
Buford T. Justice
06-15-2007, 08:09 PM
It would be interesting to know if this information has ever been used in the court system during a trial.
But I agree... they probably do look at it, just not sure if its allowing during a court case.
Yep:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-05-15-boxes-usat_x.htm
Good stuff. I really don't have a problem with it.
crabbyman
06-15-2007, 08:20 PM
...double post..
crabbyman
06-15-2007, 08:21 PM
Depending on the situation and manufacturer....it is set up to record so much time. I believe it "erases" itself after so many miles to add the new data. I could be completely wrong...
I do know..like someone else said...that if the airbag deploys or another of a set parameter of triggers occur, the "black box" records all the systems measurements so it can be used for technical purposes. It has also been said that warranty claims call upon that data to see if you were "hot rodding" when your engine magically burnt a valve up.
More information..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_Data_Recorder
List of vehicles...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vehicles_with_Event_Data_Recorders
It does not look like all makes/models are listed...no Toyotas listed at all!!! and I know my tC has one.
Laws...
http://www.harristechnical.com/cdr7.htm
crabbyman
06-15-2007, 08:28 PM
More...
http://www.newsday.com/other/education/ny-news_91404,0,2264948.story
From a Toyota Tundra user...
The SRS air bag sensor assembly contains the EDR. In a crash or near crash event, this device may record some or all of the following information;
Engine speed,
Whether the brake pedal was applied or not,
Vehicle speed,
To what extent the accelerator was depressed,
Position of transmission selector lever,
Whether the driver and front passenger wore seat belts,
Drivers seat position,
Front passenger’s occupant classification,
SRS airbag deployment data, and the list goes on…..
Toyota will share the data with police; use it to defend themselves in a law suit etc.
SmaartAasSaabr
06-15-2007, 08:30 PM
I know of a case in Canada that the proof of the speed was extracted from a GM car and used in court , it was a fatal accident and the accused was condamned based of that proof....:
ouais je le souviens :shock: Pesky silver Cavaliers...
I don't like the idea, but there are benefits into accident reconstruction and the engineering of safer cars for everyone.
Typically even if you're driving quickly but safely if you get into an accident your velocity will be "legal" anyway since you have slammed the brakes like a mother****er :lol: and it's unlikely to have an accident in areas where you drive at high speeds anyway.
Most of the high-profile cases where these things have been used in court involve people drunk or high doing 150 km/h in a 50 zone that is a small street with lots of pedestrians or something crazy like that.
Arashi666
06-15-2007, 10:10 PM
well quarter, the thing with cars and search warrants is that if youre pulled over or anything like that and the cops wanna search your car, you can give them consent, or they can arrest you, stuff you in the squad car and search it anyways
Uh, no, it doesn't quite work that way. They can't just arrest you for no reason and then search the car. Well technically they can, but anything they found would be inadmissible as evidence, making it useless.
truckerjaw
06-16-2007, 02:10 AM
I'm not sure just how long this in going to take going from semi truck to car but here is what is going on in the trucking industry. Most of the accidents involving cars, semi's, and a death are the fault of the car not knowing how to properly drive near a semi truck. The government sees this and is looking to make 'black boxes' (on board recorders) mandatory in big rigs to record what happens in the moments just before impact. A lot of there 'black boxes' are already in trucks (I have one in mine). When (not if) they make it to all cars the government says that they will be the only one to be able to pull the info. Not your insurance, job or anyone else that wants to have a say in how you drive. The only time it will be able to be pulled is if you are in an accident; then for proof of fault it can be pulled. This is something the the truckers have been fighting against for years. I'm surprised that it is taking this long to get to people that drive cars. It can record the last 10 minutes or the last 6 months of what ever you do (steering, speed, brake, lights, engine temp, how long you idled the car before you put it in drive, whatever) before an accident. I have seen the printouts for semi's, its not pretty. The only thing that works in the drivers favor is that a car salesmen has to tell you before you buy a car that it comes with a on board recorder.
John_in_NC
06-16-2007, 04:41 AM
I have been told that insurance companies are trying to get it so they dont have to pay any claims if you were driving over the PSL. And as someone else pointed out, GM does not warrantly your head gasket leaking cause you exceeded RPM or whatever,..etc.
Is it time we get my own computer?
One that can control the car and play MP3's?
Gosh, big brother is really getting around eh? You put on your cellphone and he knows where you are, can listen to your calls, finds out you have an account on Radardetector.net, knows that you typically purchase Diet Coke at the supermarket, and knows you watch the Man Show when reviewing the report from your digital cable box.
When they come out with a computerized toilet, I am leaving the country!
John_in_NC
06-16-2007, 05:07 AM
TS your car!!
Warrant Much?
Not trying to get off subject but you should know by now we dont truely have any rights.
A cop can do whatever he wants who is going to stop him, you?
When it is your word against his, guess who wins.
The unfortunate truth is you are guilty until you come up enough cash to prove you are innocent.
In spite of this I would rather be ticketed by a cop estimating my speed than a computer that is so-called error-free.
So, you are NOT rich and get in an accident and you were in fact going the PSL but the computer malfunctions and says you were going 20 over. They will believe the computer over you because the computer has no reason to lie. Your dead meat.
They argue, The computer will never make a mistake.
Do computers make mistakes?
Yes they do because the software is designed by a human and humans can make mistakes.
Also, the hardware can fail. Ever buy something that doesn't work?
Ever have to reboot a computer, if so error free, why?
I work on computerized equipment every day, I hate the thought of non-intelligent life ruling against human intelligence.
Red-light cameras are also another example of your reputation and rights at risk. All based on the the hands of a lowly paid programmer from some third world country.
Buford T. Justice
06-16-2007, 05:57 AM
TS your car!!
Warrant Much?
Not trying to get off subject but you should know by now we dont truely have any rights.
A cop can do whatever he wants who is going to stop him, you?
When it is your word against his, guess who wins.
The unfortunate truth is you are guilty until you come up enough cash to prove you are innocent.
In spite of this I would rather be ticketed by a cop estimating my speed than a computer that is so-called error-free.
So, you are NOT rich and get in an accident and you were in fact going the PSL but the computer malfunctions and says you were going 20 over. They will believe the computer over you because the computer has no reason to lie. Your dead meat.
They argue, The computer will never make a mistake.
Do computers make mistakes?
Yes they do because the software is designed by a human and humans can make mistakes.
Also, the hardware can fail. Ever buy something that doesn't work?
Ever have to reboot a computer, if so error free, why?
I work on computerized equipment every day, I hate the thought of non-intelligent life ruling against human intelligence.
Red-light cameras are also another example of your reputation and rights at risk. All based on the the hands of a lowly paid programmer from some third world country.
** When its his word against mine and he says I was speeding and I say I was not..... Then thats when I get an attorney and have a lookie at the on board computer!!
**Also I_have_never_rebooted my computer.... I RUN LINUX!! (Simply Mepis)
Stealthcb
06-16-2007, 06:18 AM
Event Data Recorders (EDRs) can be disconnected. I just don't know how. The one in my Mazda allegedly records the last 9 seconds, I believe.
Arashi666
06-16-2007, 06:18 AM
Uh, no, it doesn't quite work that way. They can't just arrest you for no reason and then search the car. Well technically they can, but anything they found would be inadmissible as evidence, making it useless.
well if he suspects youre hiding something, BAM, probable cause, and thats all thats really needed in the case of a automobiles in general, I was told by an actual LEO, out school resource officer, real cool guy, told us all the little loopholes the cops have against you
Buford T. Justice
06-16-2007, 06:36 AM
Uh, no, it doesn't quite work that way. They can't just arrest you for no reason and then search the car. Well technically they can, but anything they found would be inadmissible as evidence, making it useless.
well if he suspects youre hiding something, BAM, probable cause, and thats all thats really needed in the case of a automobiles in general, I was told by an actual LEO, out school resource officer, real cool guy, told us all the little loopholes the cops have against you
One loop hole that the locals around here enjoy is detecting your legal RD and pulling you over for other bull crap reasons. Legal way to harass you for your legal RD.. No more with my STi!!
Occurring more and more...
Your statement is sooo true.
Now every bit of liberty must be fought ...
Soon is coming the Gps based rf-linked to a central station and sending you warning over a synthetised voice : '' if you keep this speed , we will send you a ticket ...this is recording....blabla ''
Money don't buy happiness , it buys peace of mind.... like an excellent rd + a smart jammer ...a good attorney if things turn bad ...money is power :lol:
Buford T. Justice
06-16-2007, 08:17 AM
Now every bit of liberty must be fought ...
Soon is coming the Gps based rf-linked to a central station and sending you warning over a synthetised voice : '' if you keep this speed , we will send you a ticket ...this is recording....blabla ''
Money don't buy happiness , it buys peace of mind.... like an excellent rd + a smart jammer ...a good attorney if things turn bad ...money is power :lol:
They have a similar system now called camera's at stop lights. You know when you run through a red light and a ticket shows up at your door.
Local town people fought and fought but guess who won. Big brother cuz it brings in $$$.
The synthesized voice will be coming!! "Warning your exceeding the speed limit, this is your last warning."
A few minutes later: "You now have exceeded the speed limit for the last time and your central car computer is now uploading this citation to your local sheriff. Have a nice day and drive safely."
I'm gonna hate that voice some day.
SmaartAasSaabr
06-16-2007, 10:46 AM
When they come out with a computerized toilet, I am leaving the country!
Ever been to Japan, they have computerized toilets everywhere :lol: You walk by, it opens, then after you are finished it shoots water at you :shock:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/JapaneseToiletBidet.jpg/509px-JapaneseToiletBidet.jpg
insertquarter
06-16-2007, 12:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPeWSpB_7w4
TSi+WRX
06-16-2007, 12:08 PM
It has also been said that warranty claims call upon that data to see if you were "hot rodding" when your engine magically burnt a valve up.
^ This information doesn't necssarily have to come from the vehicle's EDR. Even the vehicle's ECU can supply the dealership with this data.
I'm not sure whether to put a :) here, or a :cry: .
maxima lover
06-16-2007, 12:28 PM
well quarter, the thing with cars and search warrants is that if youre pulled over or anything like that and the cops wanna search your car, you can give them consent, or they can arrest you, stuff you in the squad car and search it anyways
well if he suspects youre hiding something, BAM, probable cause, and thats all thats really needed in the case of a automobiles in general, I was told by an actual LEO, out school resource officer, real cool guy, told us all the little loopholes the cops have against you\
This is not true. They have to have real proof (like a bag of pot on your seat) and not a hunch otherwise it's an illegal search which is a violation of your rights. "Suspecting" is not probable cause for a search and any first year public defender would get any evidence that was obtained like that, tossed.
Oh yeah, and speeding, running a red light, and not wearing your seat belt are probable cause for a traffic stop, but not a search of your vehicle or anymore then a weapons pat down of you.
maxima lover
06-16-2007, 12:33 PM
As far as these boxes, in order to be admissible in court, the prosecution (if they are trying to prosecute you for involuntary manslaughter or such), will have to get someone who actually helped design it in the court room. They'll have to explain how the device works and how it never will make an error. You have the right to question anyone who has provide evidence against you. It's real similar to using a radar or laser device. In the first cases, the courts had to get experts to show they were accurate. Once the courts accept they are accurate, they no longer need the exert in future cases.
Same think goes if the prosecutor has his buddy go take pictures of the scene. They need to be in court as well or the evidence should be tossed.
TprDave
06-30-2007, 11:57 AM
Here is the web site for the company that makes the software and equipment for downloading your "Black Box" for now the only vehicles that can be downloaded are GMC and (some) Fords, the best one to get info out of is the GM here is a list of some of the stuff you can extract
There's a list on that site of all vehicle that are supported,
Crash data that can be downloaded from all newer GM vehicles includes:
Vehicle speed (5 seconds before impact)
Engine speed (5 seconds before impact)
Brake status (5 seconds before impact)
Throttle position (5 seconds before impact)
Driver's seat belt status (On/Off)
Passenger's airbag enabled or disabled state (On/Off)
Airbag Warning Lamp status (On/Off)
Delta-V (change in velocity) vs. time graph for deployment event (300 ms)
The recorded crash data varies depending on vehicle make, model and year.
Most states now require a search warrant to extract the info, you just can't get pulled over and have your airbag module read, plus the information is only recorded if the module has been activated and you had deployed or a near deployment event of your airbags, It's not like an airplane and recording all the time :D
hope that helps :D
here is the site:
http://www.vetronix.com/aftermarket/
Maestro
08-24-2007, 12:55 PM
It would be interesting to know if this information has ever been used in the court system during a trial.
But I agree... they probably do look at it, just not sure if its allowing during a court case.
Yep:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-05-15-boxes-usat_x.htm
Not to bring up an old subject but here is appeal on this exact situation and it was upheld that this information can be used against you even thought Florida speed recording statute, section 316.1905(1), Florida Statutes (2003) says otherwise
Here is the case if you want to look it up
IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF APPEAL OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA FOURTH DISTRICT JANUARY TERM 2005
CASE No. 4D03-2043
899 So.2d 403, 30 Fla. L. Weekly D859, 2005.FL.0001198<
March 30, 2005
EDWIN MATOS, APPELLANT,
v.
STATE OF FLORIDA, APPELLEE.
Nighthawk243
08-25-2007, 12:41 AM
Most EDR's are designed to only be tripped when the Airbag module activates... Its part of the system. They cannot be used for traffic court if no activation of the airbags happened (If you were speeding, but got pulled over, it cannot condemn you in court.).
Now, some systems, such as GM's Onstar can condemn you. They can track your speed and location via GPS. :shock:
That is why I made damn sure my G5 didn't have Onstar.
xXCriticizeXx
08-25-2007, 02:29 PM
true story with the GPS thingy. I personally know someone that had a in car gps installed and he was speeding at a ridiculous speed (stupid) but got pulled over and the officer wanted to confiscate the gps to use in court or something like that and he broke the ground wire or something and fried it.... he ended up getting just a big ticket and a broken gps. apparently the officers were not clocking speed but he was going so fast it was obvious, he says even though he got the ticket he does not regret breaking the gps because he says the fine would be much greater if they ticketed him for his "proper" speed.
Did they have to reimburse him for breaking his GPS?
xXCriticizeXx
08-25-2007, 10:02 PM
No my buddy broke the ground so they police couldnt use it against him...
Ohhh I thought you meant the officer broke it trying to remove it...
GrandCentral
08-31-2007, 05:55 PM
I agre with letting te cops read my onboard computer, it isn't as though they can use it for small infraction like speeding how wouuld they access the computer wirelessly I can't even get my bluetooth to work right. But in an accident it coul be useful to determine whose fault the accident was such as if a guy is 30 mph above the PSL driving in a dangerous manner and caused an accident the person should be puished.