What's Really Up With POP Mode

[wootham]

Hey guys. If there is already a thread reagarding this then by all means let me know. I looked but not through and through.

What exactly is POP mode and what does it mean? Is it not true that POP radar guns operate in less than a second - as in on and off immediately with a reading diplayed on the gun? If this is in fact the case then what could POP mode on a detector actually do? What does it do? What can it do differently than a detector without POP mode?

[RB211-535]

Hey guys. If there is already a thread reagarding this then by all means let me know. I looked but not through and through.

What exactly is POP mode and what does it mean? Is it not true that POP radar guns operate in less than a second - as in on and off immediately with a reading diplayed on the gun? If this is in fact the case then what could POP mode on a detector actually do? What does it do? What can it do differently than a detector without POP mode?

From what I learned so far on this forum, I can tell you that POP is exclusively on MPH Radar Guns, and they can be in either K or Ka 33.8 GHz bands. There are different rates of POP, 16ms and 67ms, if I can recall. You cannot receive a traffic citation solely using POP, the LEO must get another reading from activating I/O or C/O radar because they need tracking history. I'd recommend turning off POP OFF on your RD because they usually false alot with POP. As others have said on this board, POP = POOP hahaha Hopefully the experts on this board will explain more thoroughly.

[justin81]

POP is an operating mode that is exclusive to some radar guns manufactured by MPH Industries. The purpose of this mode is to defeat radar detectors. It works by sending out an extremely brief burst of a radar signal on either the K or Ka band. The POP burst is so fast that radar detectors (in theory) shouldn't be able to hear it. But it's still long enough to acquire your speed. If the officer wants to ticket you, they will then switch the radar out of POP mode (sometimes accomplished by pressing the trigger for a longer interval) and hit you with a burst of standard radar to verify the POP reading and provide a tracking history.

The purpose of POP is to allow LE to "sample" traffic without being detected. The danger this poses is as follows: Joe Six-pack is speeding merrily along with his "POP-less" detector onboard. A LEO ahead of Joe is sampling oncoming traffic using POP. Joe's detector can't "see" it. Joe gets "popped" - the LEO gets a reading off Joe's car and the officer knows that Joe is traveling above the PSL. The LEO switches to standard mode and turns on the radar to verify the POP reading of Joe's excessive speed. Joe's detector finally goes off and he slams on the brakes, but it's too late...far too late. The POP mode already caught Joe speeding and the initial IO radar burst verified it. Joe also looks like a tool for slamming on the brakes and the officer probably knows that Joe has a detector.

Most decent current radar detectors can detect POP - how well depends on the detector. One of the inherent problems with POP detection is that it will almost always cause more false alarms, typically on Ka band. These false alarms are usually caused by cheap, leaky radar detectors in other cars. Therefore, most radar detectors that are POP capable have the option of turning POP detection off.

The POP guns are expensive. So far, the consensus seems to be that not many police departments are jumping on the POP bandwagon. Some departments have guns with POP mode, but it's not known if it is even used. MPH introduced a new high end radar system recently and the POP feature isn't even included. Take that for what it's worth.

There is also a real potential for misuse with these POP guns. The POP reading in and of itself should not be used as the sole basis for issuing a citation. There is a real danger that a rogue or clueless officer could be using POP alone to ticket people, but who would really know? It's not like "my radar detector didn't go off" is an affirmative defense in traffic court.

[sethy]

What I never have gotten about this 'pop mode' gimmick, is that if cops are trained to visual estimate speed of a car ~3 or 5 mph, why would they need to waste their time using pop to sample traffic?

[<<JAZZY>>]

Radar Detector FAQ - Guys of LIDAR (http://guysoflidar.com/faq.html#6)

What is POP Mode?

POP Mode is a feature that was introduced by MPH Industries in their latest radar guns, designed to defeat radar detectors. POP acquires a vehicle's speed by sending out a quick burst of radar. This burst was so short that detectors available at the time of POP's introduction did not alert to it, either due to a sweep rate that was too slow to detect it at all, or due to the short burst being filtered out as a false alert. Fortunately, many radar detector manufacturers have since added POP detection capability to their latest radar detectors.


Radar guns that currently have the POP feature:

MPH BEE 3 = 67ms, K or Ka-Band
MPH Enforcer = 67ms, K or-Ka Band
MPH Z25 = 16ms K-Band
MPH Z35 = 16ms K-Band

Many of the latest detectors can detect 67ms Ka-Band POP reasonably well.

[wootham]

Thanks for your explanations guys. Kindly tell me if I have a wrap on this now: So basically POP mode(when enabled) on a RD filters a tad less and there for is a little more sensitive when POP is turned on? Is is that simple? And then I guess the reason for this "ultra-sensitivity" is simply so that it can detect a MPH gun utilizing POP which would, without MPH POP-enabled guns, be pointless?

[nine_c1]

Thanks for your explanations guys. Kindly tell me if I have a wrap on this now: So basically POP mode(when enabled) on a RD filters a tad less and there for is a little more sensitive when POP is turned on? Is is that simple? And then I guess the reason for this "ultra-sensitivity" is simply so that it can detect a MPH gun utilizing POP which would, without MPH POP-enabled guns, be pointless?

Nope.....you don't have a wrap on it.......yet! POP mode on your detector is alot more about timing than it is about sensitivity.

POP Radar exists on only (2) frequencies...........33.8 ghz (Ka) and 24.150 ghz (K). Your detector is set up to scan 10.525 (X), 24.150 (K) and about ten frequency blocks in the (Ka) spectrum from 33.4 ghz to 36.0 ghz. In normal mode your detector would scan each frequency in order and have time to do a rather thorough signal analysis. In POP mode, the detector has to pick up the scan rate and check the 33.8 and 24.15 frequencies more often than the others in order to catch the quick burst emitted by a POP radar.

Putting your detector into POP mode creates two other headaches for your detector. First it takes away some of the analysis time permitted on each band which increases the chance of your detector giving false alerts. Second, it effectively slows down the scan rate of your detector on the non-POP frequencies. This slows down the reaction time on X band and the non-POP Ka band frequencies (34.7 and 35.5). Escort recommends turning POP off to increase your chance of catching a Quick Trigger pull on the non-POP bands.

[wootham]

And it all comes full circle. Thank you for that great explanation nine_c1. I understand now. POP will be disabled on my 9500ix(I pretend its a V1, okay not really but I wish it was) the next time I use it. :D

[mrmysterious]

Great answer ninc_c1, that clears a lot up!

[ATSRADAR]

Thanks for your explanations guys. Kindly tell me if I have a wrap on this now: So basically POP mode(when enabled) on a RD filters a tad less and there for is a little more sensitive when POP is turned on? Is is that simple? And then I guess the reason for this "ultra-sensitivity" is simply so that it can detect a MPH gun utilizing POP which would, without MPH POP-enabled guns, be pointless?

Nope.....you don't have a wrap on it.......yet! POP mode on your detector is alot more about timing than it is about sensitivity.

POP Radar exists on only (2) frequencies...........33.8 ghz (Ka) and 24.150 ghz (K). Your detector is set up to scan 10.525 (X), 24.150 (K) and about ten frequency blocks in the (Ka) spectrum from 33.4 ghz to 36.0 ghz. In normal mode your detector would scan each frequency in order and have time to do a rather thorough signal analysis. In POP mode, the detector has to pick up the scan rate and check the 33.8 and 24.15 frequencies more often than the others in order to catch the quick burst emitted by a POP radar.

Putting your detector into POP mode creates two other headaches for your detector. First it takes away some of the analysis time permitted on each band which increases the chance of your detector giving false alerts. Second, it effectively slows down the scan rate of your detector on the non-POP frequencies. This slows down the reaction time on X band and the non-POP Ka band frequencies (34.7 and 35.5). Escort recommends turning POP off to increase your chance of catching a Quick Trigger pull on the non-POP bands.

I asked a similar question to VR directly and got this answer from one of the associates. Your answer makes much more sense than VR's. Can anyone confirm the function of VR POP related to sweep time?

Dear Sir:



Thanks for your note. Activating or deactivating POP has absolutely no impact on sweep rate for K or Ka.



None whatsoever.



Cordially,

[nine_c1]

Thanks for your explanations guys. Kindly tell me if I have a wrap on this now: So basically POP mode(when enabled) on a RD filters a tad less and there for is a little more sensitive when POP is turned on? Is is that simple? And then I guess the reason for this "ultra-sensitivity" is simply so that it can detect a MPH gun utilizing POP which would, without MPH POP-enabled guns, be pointless?

Nope.....you don't have a wrap on it.......yet! POP mode on your detector is alot more about timing than it is about sensitivity.

POP Radar exists on only (2) frequencies...........33.8 ghz (Ka) and 24.150 ghz (K). Your detector is set up to scan 10.525 (X), 24.150 (K) and about ten frequency blocks in the (Ka) spectrum from 33.4 ghz to 36.0 ghz. In normal mode your detector would scan each frequency in order and have time to do a rather thorough signal analysis. In POP mode, the detector has to pick up the scan rate and check the 33.8 and 24.15 frequencies more often than the others in order to catch the quick burst emitted by a POP radar.

Putting your detector into POP mode creates two other headaches for your detector. First it takes away some of the analysis time permitted on each band which increases the chance of your detector giving false alerts. Second, it effectively slows down the scan rate of your detector on the non-POP frequencies. This slows down the reaction time on X band and the non-POP Ka band frequencies (34.7 and 35.5). Escort recommends turning POP off to increase your chance of catching a Quick Trigger pull on the non-POP bands.

I asked a similar question to VR directly and got this answer from one of the associates. Your answer makes much more sense than VR's. Can anyone confirm the function of VR POP related to sweep time?

Dear Sir:



Thanks for your note. Activating or deactivating POP has absolutely no impact on sweep rate for K or Ka.



None whatsoever.



Cordially,

You guys are making me work!

I'll admit that it's much more complicated than what I posted above but in Laymen Terms it's essentially correct.

The "sweep rate" he is referring to is the cycle time of the Local Oscillator in the Front end of the detector. Neither the V1 or Escort's sweep rate is likely affected by putting your detector into POP mode. However, the way signals are processed is.

Although the V1 is inherently quicker as it has a patent for sweeping K and Ka radar bands together in one local oscillator sweep.

I believe both detectors use programming to weed out falses by delaying alerts until signals are confirmed in mutliple sweeps.....so even though a signal might be detected, the Detector may wait until the 3rd or 4th pass to report it in order to reduce falsing. In POP mode the detectors cannot afford to wait the additional time and so may alert to a 33.8 or 24.150 signal on the 1st pass.......hence the increased falsing in POP mode. More so on the Belscorts than the V1's J-outs.

Field testing has shown that response times on the non-pop frequencies are greater with POP mode enabled on either detector.....again, more so on the Belscort while the V1 it's almost negligable. So somewhere along the line additional processor cycles are being chewed up by POP enablement, affecting response on those other bands. That's why I used the term "Effectively slows down the scan rate".

Sensitivity, on the other hand, appears to be largely unaffected by POP mode.........other than the initial delay to alerting on the non-POP bands.

So......the only risk to leaving POP mode on for the V1 is the potential of more J-outs. The risk of leaving POP mode on for the Escort is a significant increase in falses and making a slow response time to Quick Trigger Instant on even slower.

[wootham]

nine_c1 - thanks again.

[nine_c1]

nine_c1 - thanks again.

Anytime Wootham! We all come here to learn :D.

[kpatz]

From what (little) I know about the technical innards of either the V1 or Belscort detectors, I do know that the Belscorts do adjust their sweep based on what bands they're programmed to scan. In other words, if you turn Ka off, it doesn't scan that frequency at all. Thus, it's possible, and likely, that the Belscorts will modify their LO sweep when POP is on, in order to scan the relevant POP frequencies more often. This is why turning bands off can increase sensitivity on other bands, and turning POP off increases range.

The V1, on the other hand, I believe uses a "fixed" sweep. It sweeps all bands the same way, regardless of what's turned on/off in programming mode. Turning a band off, or enabling or disabling POP, is handled in the signal analysis/bogey tracking phase. In other words, if POP is off on a V1, it will still internally detect POP bursts but it will filter them out and not alert to them. The range of enabled bands isn't affected by disabled bands, or by POP being on or off. Any perceived difference in sensitivity with POP ON vs OFF on a V1 is due to filtering.

[FoolishOne]

ATSRADAR, I'll agree with c1 in the fact that they worded that funny: "sweep rate". Using nice round numbers, whether POP is on or off, it still takes the V1 1 second to search all K band freq. and 2 seconds to search all Ka band freq. Very loosely I'll say that in a sweep, the V1 has the natural ability to pick up VERY small packets of RADAR. It doesn't need to slow down to pick up the small ones.

[wootham]

nine_c1 - thanks again.

Anytime Wootham! We all come here to learn :D.

Well I sincerely appreciate the explanations. I am definitely here to soak up knowledge and occasionally put my two cents in :)

[Gokhos]

What I never have gotten about this 'pop mode' gimmick, is that if cops are trained to visual estimate speed of a car ~3 or 5 mph, why would they need to waste their time using pop to sample traffic?

Trained? My opinion is they are instructed how to guess is more like it. There are so many factors that can influence perception of speed, that IMO, visual estimation is a guestimate at best.

Unfortunately, in some jurisdictions, visual estimation along is enough to cite.

And what verification is there that a visual estimation even took place?

To my knowledge, I have never actually be targeted by POP. As has been indicated here before, they are expensive and not that many around. But they are out there.

Personally, I get POP alerts on my Whistler from Cobra RD.....

[nine_c1]

Here is a post that GTO_4 made in another thread.

It definintely shows that reaction times are increased on the non-POP bands when the V1 is running in POP mode.

http://www.radardetector.net/forums/valentine-one/7158-michael-bs-test-results-valentine-one-3-826-a.html

[Zero187]

What I never have gotten about this 'pop mode' gimmick, is that if cops are trained to visual estimate speed of a car ~3 or 5 mph, why would they need to waste their time using pop to sample traffic?

I was doing 100mph+ when I blew by a cop that was sitting at a redlight yesterday. He had his radar off and didn't even seem to notice the only vehicle around blasting through the intersection. I had 3-4 friends in the car and they were all sure I was going to get pulled over - yet the cop didn't even follow me.

They may have been initially trained to know this stuff, but either didn't pay attention or quickly lost the ability and/or focus.

[nine_c1]

I asked a similar question to VR directly and got this answer from one of the associates. Your answer makes much more sense than VR's. Can anyone confirm the function of VR POP related to sweep time?

Dear Sir:



Thanks for your note. Activating or deactivating POP has absolutely no impact on sweep rate for K or Ka.



None whatsoever.



Cordially,

Ok......now with the patent in hand and lab tests performed by Michael B. we can say the comment above by VR is not accurate!

Sweep rate in the context of our conversation is a measurement of sweep cycles over a given period of time. Examination of the patent reveals that it takes three sweeps to cover all portions of the X, K, Ku, and Ka bands. One short cycle for X and two longer cycles to cover the K, Ku and Ka bands. According to the patent, average time to complete a normal (non-POP mode) sweep of all four bands is approximately 160 ms (milliseconds). BTW.......we are talking about sweep cycles of the 1st local oscillator in the front end of the detector.

This is born out in actual lab tests results provided by Michael B. where K band response time is 100% at signal durations at or above 200 ms. Since Ka bands are subject to false alerts from polluting detectors it appears that the V1 needs to see a signal present on the 34.7 and 35.5 on at least two consecutive sweeps before alerting (400 ms) and three consecutive sweeps on 33.8 (600ms).

POP mode on the V1 is an ingenious method of effectively increasing the sweep rate on the POP frequencies of 33.8 (Ka) and 24.150 (K) without
increasing the number of sweep cycles! How do they do this......they interrupt the 1st sweep cycle with a 2nd sweep (POP signal check) and then continue on with the 1st sweep.

Examination of the patent reveals that the 1st X band sweep is very brief and uninterrupeted by a POP sweep. However, the 2nd and 3rd sweeps of the K, Ku, and Ka bands are interrupted 5 times by secondary sweeps in POP mode. These POP sweeps are evenly spaced and last 50 ms each.

To simplify........lets consider normal operation to be 1 sweep of the X, K, Ku and Ka bands that last 160 ms. In POP mode you have that one sweep interrupted 5 times for mini POP sweeps that last 50 ms each. So in POP mode in now takes 410 ms to complete a sweep of all Radar Frequencies.

This is again born out by the lab results provided by Michael B.
K-Band detection times are reduced as expected down to 100ms. Detection time is also reduced on the Ka Pop band (33.8) down to 100ms or less. However, as expected, response times are increased on the non-Pop bands of 34.7 and 35.5 by at least the amount of time required to complete the 5 mini Pop sweeps (250 ms). Response times on these two bands in the lab went from 400ms up to 700ms!

This is using figures that were accurate as of 2006. Since then many software changes have been enacted by Valentine which may affect the response times you would see in a current issue V1. However, I'm sure the theory of POP operation remains the same.

[Cips]

Very interesting nine_c1. Very interesting. :)

[sethy]

What I never have gotten about this 'pop mode' gimmick, is that if cops are trained to visual estimate speed of a car ~3 or 5 mph, why would they need to waste their time using pop to sample traffic?

Trained? My opinion is they are instructed how to guess is more like it. There are so many factors that can influence perception of speed, that IMO, visual estimation is a guestimate at best.

'Trained' was a poor choice of word. But, after a state trooper should be able to accurately guess a vehicle speed. Much like how I have driven so much, that I normally know the speed I am going w/o looking at the speedometer.

[wootham]

I can also pretty much tell how fast I am going without looking at the speedometer also, at least when I'm under 60 or so but it seems to me that it is much easier to tell the speed of the vehicle that you are in as opposed to telling the speed of a vehicle that you are looking at down the road, especially when you are sitting still(like many LEOs).

[Batman]

I was doing 100mph+ when I blew by a cop that was sitting at a redlight yesterday. He had his radar off and didn't even seem to notice the only vehicle around blasting through the intersection. I had 3-4 friends in the car and they were all sure I was going to get pulled over - yet the cop didn't even follow me.

They may have been initially trained to know this stuff, but either didn't pay attention or quickly lost the ability and/or focus.
Some cops just pay no attention. I was driving through London once, doing around 70 in a 30, saw a cop (on street with no radar or laser gun), slammed the brakes to get down to 30, the tires screeched, and still he didn't do anything!

[Doc What, son?]

Thanks for your explanations guys. Kindly tell me if I have a wrap on this now: So basically POP mode(when enabled) on a RD filters a tad less and there for is a little more sensitive when POP is turned on? Is is that simple? And then I guess the reason for this "ultra-sensitivity" is simply so that it can detect a MPH gun utilizing POP which would, without MPH POP-enabled guns, be pointless?

Nope.....you don't have a wrap on it.......yet! POP mode on your detector is alot more about timing than it is about sensitivity.

POP Radar exists on only (2) frequencies...........33.8 ghz (Ka) and 24.150 ghz (K). Your detector is set up to scan 10.525 (X), 24.150 (K) and about ten frequency blocks in the (Ka) spectrum from 33.4 ghz to 36.0 ghz. In normal mode your detector would scan each frequency in order and have time to do a rather thorough signal analysis. In POP mode, the detector has to pick up the scan rate and check the 33.8 and 24.15 frequencies more often than the others in order to catch the quick burst emitted by a POP radar.

Putting your detector into POP mode creates two other headaches for your detector. First it takes away some of the analysis time permitted on each band which increases the chance of your detector giving false alerts. Second, it effectively slows down the scan rate of your detector on the non-POP frequencies. This slows down the reaction time on X band and the non-POP Ka band frequencies (34.7 and 35.5). Escort recommends turning POP off to increase your chance of catching a Quick Trigger pull on the non-POP bands.

I asked a similar question to VR directly and got this answer from one of the associates. Your answer makes much more sense than VR's. Can anyone confirm the function of VR POP related to sweep time?

Dear Sir:



Thanks for your note. Activating or deactivating POP has absolutely no impact on sweep rate for K or Ka.



None whatsoever.



Cordially,

This statement by VR is not necessarily incompatible with Ninec1's explanation.

Sweep rate, I would expect, would always be the same. It's just that, moment for moment, in pop mode, the detector is repeatedly re-scanning POP frequencies at the expense of other frequencies.