AlPiNe Up NOrth InVaTaTiOnal 08' Scheduled for Nov 15th 2008

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Originally Posted by Aoshi

TSi+WRX - I appreciate the concern for an accurate test, that's why we did a dry run with no plate and the jammers off..... we got a PT at just over 300ft. Every other time, with the jammers ON I was JTG with every single gun.

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^ And the fact that you did two runs was, to me, very convincing.

Had the data just been from one run, one could've said that, heck, it might've the moon's alignment with Uranus. :p But with two? That puts the likelihood of something random being the cause of the PT near-nil.

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The weak spot is the front plate, and *if* the Laser Shield offered any protection on that, it was so minimal it was pointless to have. Who honestly cares if it reduces a PT from 1,200ft to 1,000 ft? In Ontario (and many other places), speed readings are invalid over 1,000 ft anyway due to the beam spread.

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^ And here in Ohio, even on the open highway, rarely will any enforcers engage, at distances over 1000 ft.

Indeed, it's almost a moot point.

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Now, I've applied Veil VERY lightly directly on the plate using a cloth, and applied a second layer the same way on the outside of the Laser Shield. I would bet if we were to test again I would get much better results, and there is almost no reflectivity on the plate now. The tradeoff? My plate looks dirty, but not tinted...

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^ Good stuff. I think I will pull my LaserShield, VEIL it, and see how the result turns out.

More below.......

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Originally Posted by alpinestars_2002795

I totally agree with Aoshi's findings as those where and have been my own findings for ever on the LS testing. It does "Slightly hamper the gun." "ALTHOUGH" only at "EXTREME" distances, where it is pointless anyhow. If it did hamper it, it was barely even noticeable to me with testing. It May cause a tenth of a second delay at an Extreme distance. Not even enough to be worth the time of installing it.

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Agreed. At extreme distances, particularly with such a small lock-time delay, I honestly don't see the point, either.

But what I don't get, from such observations, is why the LaserShield would seem to have its best effects at such long ranges, when the beam-spread would encompass the entire vehicle?

Wouldn't that effectively invalidate the purpose of the LaserShield, as a "point-defense," if the entire vehicle is the reflective target?

Or is this a case where, at such distances, LaserShield is able to cut down on the specific and EXTREME reflectivity of the state-issued metallic/retro-reflective (i.e. hologram embedded) plate, and bring forward this (however small) margin?

Regardless, given such observations, indeed, I don't see the worth the LaserShield, then..... :(

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....a Cr8aplt Although the plates look so different as I said they can be easily spoted although on the front, they aren't looked at so closely so frequently and one would most likely be able to get away with it more I would assume.

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^ That's the margin that I'm looking for, with that. :)

Indeed, that's what I have told others - that the front *should*, short of a walk-around, escape notice.

And again, with different states/plates, CR8APL8 has varying levels of success. For example, with something as simple as my standard tri-color Ohio plate, yes, the font's a little off, but the colors and graphics are spot-on, and it stands rigorous examination. But as with what some of our fellow hobbyists from Illinois and New York have shown, for those states' graphics-intensive plates, a high-quality, laminated, photocopy will do much, much better.

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The only way to really avoid the front plate thing is take it off as Aoshi did for his trip home, and say hey it got stolen, lol that was good stuff aoshi.

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^ There's also people in both this community, as well as the car-enthusiast community (who often do not like to use a front plate, as it ruins the aesthetics of the vehicle), who will carry a bent/beat-up front plate, with broken hardware, and will say, when pulled-over, that their plate just got bumped into, at the parking lot. ;)

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Unfortunetly your best bet is to keep the requirment in your area for front plates a non needed item and get involved in your local gov, although getting people together behind something as such is hard. But this is honestly everybody's best bet is to make it so that your area in the future doesn't require you to run one, tell your friends, confidants the real reason they want you running them, get the word around, that way if it comes up for vote atleast they vote it down hopefully too!

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+1.

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Originally Posted by Aoshi

During my original run, with my LI jammer enabled, I left my Front Plate on protected with a Laser Shield. We were able to get a punchthrough on my car at over 1,000 ft TWICE in a row (using the Stalker).

When I removed the license plate and Laser Shield, and *TURNED OFF* my LI, we got my punchthrough all the way down to 350ft!!!

Obviously, when I enabled the jammer I was JTG all the way.

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OK, back to re-examining the original post by Aoshi.....

In looking at this again, it worries me.

Why, on your vehicle, Aoshi, was the dual-head LI unable to achieve better protection - even with a totally unprotected front plate, I would think that you should still be able to achieve "effective-JTG"........

:confused:

Aoshi, what version LI are you running?

And please, if you don't mind, refresh my memory of what vehicle you drive?

Note - this is not a worry of the LaserShield - but rather, a worry of your LI setup.

That was my original concern too, but lets not forget - Ontario plates are bright white, with almost no graphics. Which is so perfectly ideal for LIDAR.

My LI is the latest everything. 8.5/7.06 - so it's not the version. and as I've said in previous posts, the sensors are on either side of the plate. I don't think anyone else there had any concerns at all with the install location, and since I was JTG all the way without the plate, it's safe to say the plate must have been the problem.

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Originally Posted by Aoshi

That was my original concern too, but lets not forget - Ontario plates are bright white, with almost no graphics. Which is so perfectly ideal for LIDAR.

My LI is the latest everything. 8.5/7.06 - so it's not the version. and as I've said in previous posts, the sensors are on either side of the plate. I don't think anyone else there had any concerns at all with the install location, and since I was JTG all the way without the plate, it's safe to say the plate must have been the problem.

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They way yours are installed I would not expect a plate punch through, the place where I would expect a punch through is the headlights, not the plate.

^ I am inclined to agree (despite not having seen the install) - unless the install extremely biases favor towards the outboard sides of the vehicle, center-mass should be the most well-protected point, regardless of plate presence/absence. At least that's what traditional belief/convention has always held.....

Is this new data going to now going to bring that into question?

This is really good stuff, guys - it's always things that come to challenge traditional knowledge that I'm most looking forward to. :)

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Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

At least that's what traditional belief/convention has always held.....

Is this new data going to now going to bring that into question?

This is really good stuff, guys - it's always things that come to challenge traditional knowledge that I'm most looking forward to. :)

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Seriously. I have not yet been to a meet, or even read the results of a meet, where I did not finding myself at some point saying, "Wow! That's surprising!" The variables in this game are innumerable.

Dear Allen Here is one reason for the hudredth of a second delay of LS at Huge distances well over 1,000ft but not under.

The reason Is the gun is at it's "Weakest" point. Meaning the Weakest of countermeasures will have even a "Marginal" effect here. Even if the beam does hit the surrounding areas. It will still Hamper it for a hundredth of a second. Even though this is pointless it is there.

The reason it still attains PT is due to what you have stated that it is only a Point protection item. And if any particulates of the beam Reflect off of another point other than the point in question PT will happen immediately. And with the beam divergence being roughly 12ft wide. This would have covered aoshi's entire car at the begining of the test course. Meaning PT would have happened almost instantly. Regardless if he had LS on or not. The reason for the split second delay is at these types of distances, the Wattage of output power from the gun, is at it's weakest point, and effecting it is likely not as difficult. If it can even hamper a 1/10th of those pulses from being reflected and returned to the receiver of the Lidar gun, it will distort the reading time, and make it take a hundredth of a second longer. The big thing to remember here all is you are working at the speed of light, which is roughly 300 million meters per second. So delaying that reading for milionth's of seconds isn't about to gain you near enough to even apply your brakes. This is what Aoshi finally got to see with his own eyes and finally realized wow, it didn't even give me enough time to hit my brakes.

Thats the thing about laser, it just moves too fast.

Now, combine passive technology with a jammer and you might have something. Meaning headlamp covers, dark car, a round curved body that will refract instead of reflect, then you pair that with a nice LJ like LI like I have, and you might get more decent results.


AlPiNe~

^ That seems to be *very* reasonable. Agreed. :) Bruddah, I can agree with all of that. :)

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So now the question just becomes why the dual LIs weren't able to properly protect Aoshi's car with the front plate, when it's seen to do so well, in so many other circumstances. :confused:

I think everyone that attended the meet would agree I have the absolutely ideal car, with the ideal setups on it.

The only thing that screws me up is the front plate, which as I said before, is bright white.. :( Gives LIDAR the perfect return surface... I'm not entirely surprised we got a PT on the car with a plate, I'm just shocked it was from such a huge distance.

Anyhow, I'll be attending the next one with my can of Veil in hand and my cr8apl8 and we'll see how much all this makes a difference.

We plan on having the 4th annual invatational July of 09' . That is what I have set thus far as far as a month. A date is still too far off to yet determine.

If I perhaps get over your way Aoshi, if I come into some $ and get to take that trip to NY i've been desiring to take, i'll bring the LZ1 and my Prolaser II with me.

As for ideal car, yes Aoshi does have an ideal car for such a test. Although his headlamps are still somewhat of a target. Then again he has veil on them a very light coating though. I might apply a little more if it where me, then again "IM anal retentive like that." The only thing is with Veil is you can't take it off at night like headlamp covers. So you are not so apt to make them as dark. ;). I have had a buddy of mine ask me where I got headlamp covers for a Satty I just giggle :D. The PT on the plate is do to the fact that, with all the retroreflective surface. It takes alot to defend against it. Even a very powerfull jammer would have a very hard time against such a surface. I mean an ontario plates are White Primarily. Also they even took it a step further if you look closely and made them super retro reflective. Michigan has just recently done the same thing. Yet the public allows it for "Saftey" reasons for the officers? Um, the officers didn't have any problems seeing the plates before? So why all the sudden the issues now? I can tell you why, "$aftey."

$ of course being the key factor there.

As I tell NMA all the time, "Typical."

And will the 2/3rd's of society speak up against the public saftey demanding, and crying out tears and sobbing on their knee's so they can make their laser gun's more effective. No, they'll just let them have it, as they have everything else.

Just give them the silver platter...:(


The 2/3rd's upsets me :mad:.

Anyhow, back to the science of it all. With all that extra retroreflective material, it is not hard to receive a return signal and it makes it even more instantanous than normal. The more reflective that plate is, the happier the lidar operator is. Wich our new plates in Mi Blinders even on the rear did nothing. Although When I put LI's on I got JFG. It takes a ton more power. Although on the rear I had my LI's completely visiable, and RIGHT next to the plate. Within less than 6 inches. Making it have even more power if one did decide to target the plate. Knowning how hard it is to jam with a plate as such.

The public Saftey officals have just gotten their way so much with plate laws that they have got the silver platter and really gotten what they wanted when it came to "Forcing" us to make our cars reflective at certain spots. Then knowning these locations they assume that "Gurantee's" them PT. Even if you have a jammer. Although, with enough Power and placing them right ontop of these points this can be avoided. ALthough, PT can still sometimes occur, thats the luck of the draw.

Even the GOL has seen this as Miracoulous PT.

Sorry about the spelling above exhausted.

Well Back to work on the video.

It's nearing completion all. Pretty much done. Have some more peaking and tweaking to do, credits. And some things to add. Will be done within a day or two i'm hoping. :).

AlPiNe~