So this could be justification to buy the LI HP!
:popcorn:
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So this could be justification to buy the LI HP!
:popcorn:
I believe quad would serve better for coverage than LI HP...Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie
Lol I think so!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie
PS. Wreck 'Em Tech!
Woot. Black cars ftw. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by category4
I agree, I think you would want more heads to better cover the weak points. I am not sure that would even help on this course though. I thin the long range PT's were where the roof was getting targeted. Not sure how you would protect that. I think that is why the black cars did so much better. When they were most vunerable they were far enough away that there was not enough lidar energy returning from the black paint. Once they had gotten into range the heads were more alligned on the same axis as the shooter.Quote:
Originally Posted by speed-demon
I am going to stop back by there this weekend and measure out some distances so everyone can see where these PT's were happening.
Pics on page 1
I am sorry for the delay in responding to the board member's concerns regarding the LI's performance at the Atlanta JammerFest II event last Saturday but I have had to take some time to very carefully review and analyze all the VIDS as well as the data and do some testing with a LTI 100 LR 125 PPS before I could properly do so. I must also qualify this as my opinion and is merely speculation as I was not at the event.
It appears that there is a "cross-talk" issue with another jammer(s) that may have been inadvertently left "ON" while the LI's were making their runs against the LRB. The LI's on the test vehicles were being confused by the other device(s) "cross-talk" and essentially reducing if not completely eliminating their effectiveness.
We have seen this phenomenon previously at one of the CFL Testing Events and now carefully check to make sure that not only are all the other participants jammers "OFF" but that their vehicles are positioned behind and or far aside of the LIDAR shooter to prevent "reflection error" off these vehicles parked in too close a proximity to the LIDAR source causing IR reflected off the target vehicle which then is reflected either into the LIDAR receiver or into the Countermeasures thereby confusing it's Processor resulting in PT's.
Indeed, not only a review of the CFL testing and GOL 08 vs the LRB showed better performance, albeit greatly different testing courses, but all past testing by this and every other testing Group as well as other independent testing shows the JTG performance of the LI vs the LRB (125 PPS).
Notice at 0.52, Rsatman's car is parked between the LIDAR and the target vehicle. Notice at 0:56 that SteathStalkers car is being used to power up the Stalker Ka RADAR gun. This could also be a plausible explanation for the "cross-talk" issue if SteathStalker's car was powered on to power the 12V accessories for the Stalker Ka RADAR leading one to logically conclude that his LI on that car might also have been powered up. I am aware of the possibility that the Ka RADAR could have been being used as cordless but the passenger's door being opened tells me this was to facilitate the use of the 12V cord for the Stalker Ka RADAR and, as the battery was most likely being used to power the Stalker LIDAR, it's unlikely it was cordless! Additionally, there are several other cars there with ZR4's, LI's and Blinders. All these could have caused the "cross-talk" issues and the resulting PT's if only but one was active during the runs.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crFl5i9HiNM]YouTube - Georgia Jammerfest 2009 Test Course[/ame]
As to why it affected the LRB results and NOT the other three LIDARS, I can only conclude that the other devices do not affect the LI as much as the LRB does or the "cross-talk" issue may have changed during the runs with the other LIDARS. I did not have the time to test this hypotheses with all the other 5 LIDAR here at LI-USA but I will do so at another date and report my finding at that time.
With that said, I believe that if this same testing was done again, this time with only the shooter with the LRB, the target vehicle and NO OTHER CARS in the area, the LRB results will be demonstrably better if not JTFG.
To be certain and in the true Scientific Method, I have Ratsman sending me his LI CPU for testing to see if I can replicate the results derived at the Georgia Testers Group's Event.
I hope this post explains the unusual testing data from this excellent testing event.
I know I am speaking for everyone on The Forum when I say Thank You to The Georgia Testers Group for all their hard work!
Cliff - LI-USA
First let me start out saying we are not trying to bash the LI. We are simply reporting the results of one test. I appreciate Cliff spending many hours on working on figuring out "what went wrong". He has simply the best customer service due to the fact that he is a enthusiast to. I believe just like Tiger Woods that even though he works for LI if there was a better jammer out there you better believe he would have it on his car :cool:
Now to the issues that have been raised. I am 100% sure that the LI in my car was turned off. Before the first lidar was shot I ran over to my car and told them to hang on and personally verified that my LI was turned off. It was not moved or touched until after almost all the runs were made. I am Also 95% sure that everyone's else jammers were turned off. We made a point about avoiding crosstalk hence only car with jammer on was the car coming down the test strip.
Stealth stalker's door was opened to power the pro laser 3. If his LI was on which i'm pretty sure it was not i would have heard it since i was standing right next to the vehicle with the door open. Ka radar guns were cordless.
My personal theory is that the 125pps Ultralyte is much harder to JTG but since all other tests have been done on a very "weak" straight and level course it has never come to light as much as it did in our test.
About this "reflection error" some say that our testing was flawed becuase "we had a car parked close to the source lidar". This is no different than a policeman leaning on his door, shooting out his window, or shooting outside of his car. If anything it only makes the test more real world. If this causes some kind of interference then all tests should aim to check the effect it has making it even tougher for the jammers.
It was my car and I was the shooter. No funny business occurred just reporting what happened. My car was the last to run. After shooting lidar for a solid 5-6 hours i feel like i was getting pretty good. Those PT were hard to get and I was trying my best to get them. I have been 100% truthful in how i procured them and no agenda. The Purpose in this test was to take our jammers to the limit. We admire the testing done by CFL & GOL but our purpose is not to compare jammers side by side. It is to test our individual setups in a more real world enviroment.
I appreciate Cliff taking a look at my CPU, hopefully something for the betterment of the community can be gained from it.
I can't speak for anybody else's setup, but my LI has no power when the ignition is off, and is way too loud to miss had it been active at any point. I always made a point of switching my LI off except when making runs in my car.
While I was driving Taylor's car for its test runs, I left my video camera recording in my car, which was left parked next to Taylor and facing downrange while he shot the lasers. I can post up that video if it would be helpful; you can see roughly where his car was as he called out the punch-throughs he got. Also, I can confirm that Taylor's LI was switched off when I got in it to do his runs.
Anyway, thanks, Cliff, for jumping in on this and helping us figure out what might have been wrong.
I know mine was off also as it is powered only when the engine is running. I know also that Taylor did go and check to make sure his was off before we started the testing.
I think the PT's were caused by the changes in elevation and attitude in relation to the lidar source over the length of the course. As I said previously I am going to go back this weekend and get distances to the curves and elevation transition points so that we might better understand where the PT's were occuring.
My pleasure guys! As I qualified my statement from the get go, it was simply supposition and conjecture on my part.
Cliff - LI-USA
RSAT you are only running the LI?
Also, for Cat's car, say for instance he has the LI running and the ZR4 in receive mode, can that cause cross talk issues, since both on the same car?
I did have the ZR4's in receive mode during my runs, I don't think this should cause an issue.
If Stealth wants to ship the ultralyte back to us for a few days I am sure we can retest against that gun with just Taylor's and my cars to see if we had such an issue.
x2 My jammers are off when the ignition is off.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradthemad
I think the only possibilities of having anything like this would be Stealth's car and Mem-Tek's car. Since Stealth was sitting right next to the lidar I am sure we would have heard it, but only those 2 can say for sure.
What version are you CAT and RSAT's LI's? Maybe there is something to do with that?
Mine is 7.06.Quote:
Originally Posted by focalcivic
I am only running the LI Quad head 2 on the front and 2 on the rear.Quote:
Originally Posted by focalcivic
I believe the version that was tested on mine was 7.04. Cliff sent me a 7.06 before the test but during the runs i had the 7.04 on. The good news is since its the old version it got sent to him today.
X2 i would love to take some videos through the hud of the PT.Quote:
Originally Posted by category4
If it were change of elevation, why didn't it happen with the other guns?
I think it might be some other variable we're missing.
Different power, different pulse rate, tighter beam on the Ultralyte, who knows for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by speed-demon
X2 That has been my point this entire time.Quote:
Originally Posted by speed-demon
Were there any other guns in use at the time? And not necessarily aiming in the same direction as the vehicle being targeted. Also, was the sun out and where was it located?
It could also simply be elevation change as everyone else mentioned. Maybe the heads on those particular vehicles aren't as level as the other cars and the elevation changes were enough to exploit this?
No other guns in use except the one that we were testing at the time. The only shooter all day was Taylor. We were trying to remain as consistent as possible.
These two cars were the only red cars, the two black cars did much better.
You guys with the red cars have close up shots of the heads. Elevated pictures and a side view would be cool also.
See the first post I think Taylor reposted the pics there.Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoth
That picture is still questionable. The heads don't look straight. It looks as if they follow the contour of the grill slat above them. So, if the heads are pointing slightly towards the road side, there is cause for concern. Might not have been an issue at the first ATL JF, but it could be now.Quote:
Originally Posted by category4
Everyone's heads looked pretty good before we started the event. The only question we had was on one of the black Mercedes but his setup tested out pretty good so we did not change anything.
I am going to recheck everything on mine once I get back into town, just to see if it needs to be tweaked.
I saw Cat4's setup a couple of weeks ago. While I didn't get a level out, I got a good look at the heads, and they appeared to be aligned correctly to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoth
That's understandable and I believe you. But suffering 1000+ft center-mass punch throughs against a gun that is easily jammed by the LI points to faulty product or a less than optimized install. I mean, I could be totally wrong, it could be the red paint that's letting the Cat4 and Rsat down.Quote:
Originally Posted by M6D
At 1500' to 1000' on that course it was very easy to shoot the roof. Taylor said the dot in the HUD covered the whole car so I suspect that is what happened on both cars. It probably happened on the other cars as well but being black they absorbed the lidar energy.Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoth
I'm hoping we can get another Ultralyte 125 PPS gun to go back and do some more testing.
If the heads are as messed up as some are suggesting how do to explain the JTG/JFG on the other 3 guns with my car? You can't......
I think that you may be onto something with the red paint. A while back I posted that red is the most reflective color to lidar which pretty much was blown off. My father was a double majot organic chemistry and physics then he went to optometry school were he studied LIGHT for 3 years of his life. He told me that 904nm is the closest to red on the light spectrum therefore reflecting more with red paint. Of course this doesnt account for white and mirror/chrome. But on the "color" of a car it certaintly could play a large role.
Yea, I've always thought red would be "up there" with white in terms of reflectivity. White and chrome, well they reflect everything. Either way, this is all very interesting.
You can explain it. At almost all of the North east lidar events, someone had a less than optimized setup. That someone did great (JTG) against a few guns, but was shredded by one or two other guns. I was one of those someones. JTG against Laser Atlanta, Ultralyte LR, but yet the Pro3 and Stalker killed me. I wasn't the only one. Carter840 with his LPP dual head had an alignment issue. He would JTG the Ultralyte LR but then suffer instant 1700 ft PT's against the Laser Atlanta and then 500-1000 ft PTs against the Stalker. His heads were cleaned and realigned somewhat and his results improved significantly. My heads were mounted behind a mesh grill and would JTG every center mass shot from every gun thrown at it. The outer portion of the headlamps and plate position were the problem. I mounted my heads outside the grill and the results were much more consistent from gun to gun. Next time we set up a North East event, I'll look for a road that mimics the ATL course because that was an excellent idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsatmans
Again, I believed you the last time when you said red was probably the most reflective color for infrared light. It would make a good bit of sense. What doesn't add up is how the most powerful gun used that day, the Stalker LZ1, didn't destroy the red cars. Instead, it was the easily jammable Ultralyte that pwn3d. Let me stress that I'm not arguing anything here. I wasn't at the event so that's why I'm firing off all these questions and requests. It would be great if we could pinpoint a specific cause or a combination of causes. That way, at future testing events around the country, other enthusiasts can test in a similar format.
*Edit* What's even more disturbing is that these 1000+ ft CM PTs happened without a front plate. I own a cherry red car with a front plate and am now a little worried.
What version where the LI's tested?
It could be different batches with manufacturing variance... (just an assumption).
Who's the question directed at? The ATL group listed all the LI ver in their results table. Mine is the first version CPU released to the public and I believe the most up to date heads.Quote:
Originally Posted by speed-demon
it was for category4. The table only says LI 7.05 for the SLK320...Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoth
What doesn't add up is your assumption that the Stalker is the "most powerful gun". Where exactly do you come up with that claim? And what is your definition of "power"? "Power" is only one facet of jamming. Other factors play a more significant part of the process. Some so-called "powerful" jammers don't even alert to certain guns, much less jam them, so what does all that "power" get them? It seems that too many people are too hung up on "power", while really having no idea what it is they are talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoth
As for the "power" of the Stalker, it had the worst average of all four guns in terms of baseline speed lock. Look at the baselines (i.e. speed lock distance on cars without jammers on) in the spreadsheet:
The "most powerful" LZ-1 = 1201 feet average
Kustom Pro Laser III = 1272 feet average
Laser Atlanta Speedlaser = 1309 feet average
"Easily Jammable" Ultralyte = 1333 feet average
It seems that your idea of "power" may be backwards, according to the above numbers. Perhaps instead of getting all caught up in the assumptions of who is "most powerful" without even knowing how to define the term, we should instead simply concentrate on the actual results. When it comes down to it, this is no more puzzling than how the "most powerful" 7 foot Russian got pwn3d in the boxing ring last month. Put all your eggs in the "power" basket and you are going to get pwn3d by technique every time.
Mine is 7.06Quote:
Originally Posted by speed-demon
*Edit*Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Stalker
To answer your question, the manufacturer of "Your" jammer said that the Stalker LZ1 was all about brute power. You own the guns, go check out the intensity of the beams and the reflections using an IR camera.
I had them all in my possession and compared/measured this myself.