Re: Would Veil work if you sprayed the whole front end?
At 5000 feet, Veil works wonders. (I am being facetious, of course).
I suspect certain users of Veil would disagree which absurd claims.
Plenty of users have had great and repeated success with Veil only at distances well under 1000 feet.
Unfortunately some have felt pressured by our detractors to not share their experiences, for "fear" of being ridiculed.
What happened to this forum over the years? There was a time we all celebrated each others' successes, instead of ridiculing them...sad, so sad.
Re: Would Veil work if you sprayed the whole front end?
The Veil Guy, would you drive through a laser trap at 20 over with only Veil and a RD protecting your car?
LOL! Here's Victor's car! This is not normal, so trying to extrapolate this to the rest of the normal car world is disingenuous.
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/l...DSCN1574-1.jpg
Second, happya$$'s car is always dirty, has its emblem removed, is small, and is ugly as hell on top of all that. Basically, he's gone out of his way to make it as stealth as possible and couldn't care less how it looks. That's also not normal. Using that ugly ass Civic as an example is also disingenuous.
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/7343/photo5axm3.jpg
Re: Would Veil work if you sprayed the whole front end?
Stealth Stalker,
Ok, I am going to try to communicate with you without resorting to hyperbole on this post, to make my point.
I will acknowledge the value of some of the controlled tests that you and other perform. They do have their place and I am really am not discounting them.
That being said, I think it is also important to realize that these tests may not be indicative of how any of these countermeasures will actually perform in the real-world.
Examples:
Recent real-world driving/review of the new Whistler SE models, in many instances performed at around the same time of my high-end remotes. Did this make them equals. Hardly. The STiR and the 9500ci are awesome. Its just in the real-world these differences (which can be huge at times) may not always be observable...meaning that in many instances the SE's can also provide terrific utility.
The same goes for countermeasures, be it Veil of actives.
When you guys test, you test perhaps on a tripod (which massively disfavors the countermeasure(s)). You test at low speeds. And you actively try to defeat the countermeasure(s).
That's all well and good for making back-to-back comparisons, however, it often times will not represent the real-world.
In most real-world encounters, an officer is not specifically anticipating any difficulty in obtaining a speed reading. Hell, I have even encountered a police officer targeting through the windshield from the comfort of the driver's seat.
I have Veil only AND A COBRA XRS-9950. I was able to slow down without incident. The reason I KNOW that he wasn't able to get a reading WITH VEIL ONLY on my SILVER METALLIC BMW, was because I turned around and made another pass.
This time the officer had gotten out of his vehicle with his PRO III.
The only point I am making here, is that in the time it takes for an officer to realize that it's not going to be turkey shoot, you should have already slowed down.
Also, the faster you go, the harder it is one the gun. 20mph is slow and is good for making multiple comparitive runs. At 50, 60, 70, 80, or 90 (and beyond) it gets much harder on the lidar gun when either passives or actives are used. That is a fact.
So all I am suggesting is not to extrapolate your test experiences with those of the real-world. It doesn't necessarily work that way. OK?
Re: Would Veil work if you sprayed the whole front end?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Veil Guy
What happened to this forum over the years? There was a time we all celebrated each others' successes, instead of ridiculing them...sad, so sad.
So far, nobody in this thread has related a success. But several people have related first-hand failures. Are we supposed to turn a blind eye to those failures and only celebrate the questionable successes?
What has happened to the forum is that it has matured. Enough of a body of evidence has been put forth over the last five years that we simply know better than we used to. There are enough people out here testing these things every day that we don't have to just sit back and listen to "success" stories. We can see for ourselves. And what I see is what I will report to people, good, bad, or indifferent. There is no intent to disparage Veil here. Only a commitment to helping my fellow forum members.
Re: Would Veil work if you sprayed the whole front end?
DJ,
Yes, I actually have, and often do. If you actually knew me, you would know this to be factually correct. 20 over is barely worth mentioning. Try 40-50. Now that's more typical.
I was once STHing with Steve and Staton (on the way to Cedar Point) in Ohio, cruising well above 80mph in a silver metallic BMW 330i, with Veil only and one of my trusty V1s. We got hit with an LTI at the top of a crest on the highway at speed, and I got on it hard. Needless to say, we didn't get a ticket. And I am CERTAIN we would have had I not had Veil. The reading would have been nearly instaneous. Steve will attest to it, as he was in the passenger seat at the time.
Another similar experience on highway we three got targeted from a cruiser on an overpass. Similar outcome. Fact, not fiction.
Another time I was in Florida on highway I-75 just north of Naples in a red rental Dodge Magnum wagon. In the evening, completely dark and targeted while cruisin at nearly 95mph, again with Veil only (on the rental) and the V1 and again, not ticketed.
Please don't suggest that these experiences were not as I explained them, because I know better, even if you don't.
If you are up to, I'd love to take a hard look at your ride to figure out were your PT's are coming from. I've seen raised antennae cause increased PTs. I'll bring my MILSPEC night vision device and will locate your weaknesses...
Veil Guy :cool:
Re: Would Veil work if you sprayed the whole front end?
First hand failures. Where? On a test course? Tripod mounted? At 20mph?
How many people who have had "failures" (in the real-world) actually got ticketed? Or doesn't this matter?
BTW, notice when someone posts a "success" how they get hammered into silence. Perhaps this may have something to do with it...the only ones talking are the ones that do the hammering.
Re: Would Veil work if you sprayed the whole front end?
Quote:
Using that ugly ass Civic as an example is also disingenuous.
Not to Steve it isn't.
If you would allow me a chance to figure your car out, we could just as easily use yours...
I already know that Mustangs can be stealthed out without going overboard, because we ran some with Roy with great success.
If I recall, some suggested that wasn't a real-world "test" because I would traveling 90mph.
Real-world for whom? For me, those speeds ARE real-world, if not routine.
Re: Would Veil work if you sprayed the whole front end?
First:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrock23
^ erickonphoenix would love to have had those "5 seconds" that you spoke of.
That statement is truly meaningless, jrock, without some sort of further physical framework.
At erickonphoenix's velocity and distances (see below), given that he'd shut-down the jammer at the time-of-PT, that 5 seconds after shut-down should have carried him well past the enforcer, and should have saved him from the ticket.
Yet, it did not.
-----
I really don't understand the problem, here. :confused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Veil Guy
While I have stated that I don't doubt that some of you have automobiles that make lousy candidates for Veil alone, that doesn't mean EVERY other vehicle also makes a lousy candidate. Those who would extrapolate such individual experiences are the ones that are not being accurate or fair to Veil, which is disappointing considering that lengths some of you go to actually "test" or claim to be factual or knowledgeable.
For every vehicle that has high punch throughs with Veil only, I'd bet that those punch throughs are coming from sources other than those that are actually treated with Veil. Why not put energy into finding out what those sources are, instead of relentlessly trashing Veil, instead.
This is precisely the case -
VEIL is a passive protective measure that is also a "point defense."
This simply means that VEIL protects what it covers - nothing more, nothing less.
We've seen plenty of vehicles do extremely well with just VEIL or VEIL in combination with an LED-based jammer - happya$$'s civic, Victor's Buick, The Breeze's Jeep Grand Cherokee - but we've also seen instances such as erickonphoneix's ( REF: http://www.radardetector.net/forums/...-thru-zr3.html , http://www.radardetector.net/forums/...inflicted.html, and http://www.radardetector.net/forums/...ct-sheila.html ).
We really cannot make any claims, either way - that any one or another vehicle is lousy with VEIL alone -or- that with any particular vehicle that VEIL alone would be near-JT(F)G.
The only truth is to say that without VEIL, one is worse-off - much worse off - than without....that at the very least, VEIL does the job that it's intended to do, to cut IR reflectivity from the worst of the point-weaknesses present on a vehicle.
We need to remember that having VEIL applied to one's headlights/plate/other hard-points is like carrying a very powerful, but very small, shield. In the face of an onslaught of arrows, that small shield is going to deflect anything that may come into contact with it - and if that shield is covering your, say, head, you'll still end the day with all the hairs on your head - but at the same time, it does nothing for those areas of your body which it doesn't cover.
VEIL isn't some sort of magical cloak that works all-over, if you only dabbed a spot of it on your hood. :)
If that's the case, then why would erickonphoenix have gotten a ticket? His vehicle was treated with VEIL, right? And it appears to be a very good job, when examined.
The problem precisely that there were areas other than those which were treated, that still presented enough of a LIDAR signature so as to have been a problem, at close range - so that when he mistakenly cut off his jammers too early, he got zapped.
I think that this is also why a lot of folks think that VEIL "doesn't work."
It's not that VEIL doesn't work - it's simply that in the tested scenarios, the LIDAR must have included, in its targeted areas, enough "unprotected" surface that it caused the gun to lock to-target. At 1000 ft., the typical LIDAR beam spreads out to nearly 36 inches in diameter....how much area does a headlamp, even one of those monstrous headlights on a current-generation Porsche or Cadillac Escalade occupy? Is it not reasonable, then, that under some of these testing conditions, VEIL may not be sufficient? Is it that VEIL failed? No certainly not - VEIL cannot be faulted for what it cannot physically cover.
Does VEIL work, in the proper context/scenario - undoubtedly - look at the under-1000 ft. PT data with and without VEIL for the Stalker LZ1, a LIDAR known to give trouble to "underpowered" jammers (this can be examined historically, with the G2 variant of VEIL, too - dig here with the proper searches, and you'll find many members of the GOL who marveled at the ability of VEIL to address this "headache" of a police LIDAR device), particularly at closer ranges. It's precisely the ability of VEIL to cut IR reflectivity that renders this performance possible.
VEIL is a point-protective measure, and all the members/vehicles highlighted show this to be fact. happya$$'s Civic demonstrates amazing "stealth" with VEIL alone, there's no denying that fact - but it's a small car, black, with LaserShield/VEIL protecting the front plate, and even is debadged of the chrome "H" on its grille. Victor's Buick is quite a bit larger, but it carries a similar careful eye towards maximizing passive stealth (blacked-out grille, removal of grille emblem, LaserShield over the front plate), and is, furthermore, dark green in color. The Breeze's truck is also green colored, and its front end not only carries VEIL on the lighting elements, but also has a bra addressing other potential weak-points. None of these cars can truly be said to have "VEIL alone" factors - all show what is possible with VEIL, yes, but these owners/enthusiasts have payed very, very careful attention towards completing "the complete picturem," even when discounting their use of active jammers.
I really and honestly cannot understand all the upset over this current argument, which seems to pop up every time a new hobbyist joins our ranks.
I think that a part of the problem comes in the thinking that these newbies may carry - in not fully understanding what VEIL can and cannot do - in that they somehow thinks that it will literally make their car "disappear" and become invisible to police LIDAR, if only they could, as the topic of this thread states, cover their entire front end with VEIL.
I've always maintained the view that VEIL is among one of the BEST possible passive protective measures available - however, that one needs to understand, fully, that VEIL is a point-protective measure designed to address a SPECIFIC weak-point (a *tremendous* weak-point, at that), and that yes, while having VEIL will be much better than not, that such protection cannot defy the physical bounds of their application, so that to achieve true passive "stealth," one must take into consideration the full passive LIDAR profile of their vehicle's front (or rear) aspect, and that just as there is clearly synergy to be had in the proper "layering" of passive protective measures (as happya$$'s, Victor's, and The Breeze's vehicle all show), everyone should understand that these are "point" measures, and that a failure to complete the picture will result in a chink in one's armor.
----
BTW, in the interest of full-disclosure:
I have never received a discount or any other financial incentives (including gifts of products, etc.) - aside from those discounts which are publicly known and available to any other member via joining "Group Buys" (of which I have organized exactly 0 [zero] of, so no, no possible problems there, either) - for *ANY* jammer. I speak of all jammers (all countermeasures, really) in a truly "from the heart" manner, of what I know about these devices as well as truly divorced from any potential external influences. For better or worse, I simply have no ties to anyone, either within this industry, or within this hobby.
I own 3 bottles of VEIL. 2 bottles of G4, and one of G2. I currently have a light coat of G4 on my daily-driven commuter, and in the past, every time I've been on a road-trip, I've used G2 on my rentals. Pictures of my VEIL application: http://www.radardetector.net/forums/...pressions.html and of my VEIL canisters: http://www.radardetector.net/forums/...79-99-a-5.html .
I have never taken any discount on VEIL (or LaserShield), aside from discounts which are publicly known and available to any other member via various coupon-codes (here on RadarBusters) or "pre-sale" (BRD.com) purchases.
I have always been a steadfast supporter of VEIL - this is just one such post that I remember, off-hand, from another Forum which I frequent: Did VEIL stain / damage your Subaru headlights ? - Subaru Legacy Forums - however, "support" doesn't mean blind adoration. I am, as-always, or so I'd like to think :p, fair in my assessments not only VEIL's strengths, but also its shortcomings.
And FWIW, I honestly do believe that StealthStalker as well as djrams80 have both been long-time supporters of VEIL. A review of their past posts here should prove-out this fact.
Heck, dj's even invested in professional HVLP painting of his vehicle's lamps with VEIL. :eek: That's intense!
Re: Would Veil work if you sprayed the whole front end?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Veil Guy
That being said, I think it is also important to realize that these tests may not be indicative of how any of these countermeasures will actually perform in the real-world.
Again, that is exactly the point. Real world results are completely unpredictable. That's why making claims that Veil alone is likely to give you a consistent ability to beat LIDAR is just not credible.
Ask anyone I have ever tested if I used a tripod. I don't even own a tripod. All my testing is real world, roadside, police encounter style. If I were seeing some tremendous results on vehicles with Veil alone, why wouldn't I report that? What would motivate me to say otherwise? If I were anti-Veil, why would I continue to promote it so heavily here? If you disagree with my observations, that's fair. But I really don't understand where you think you find the grounds to question my motivations or integrity.
Re: Would Veil work if you sprayed the whole front end?
Allen,
Points, well taken.
I actually don't have anything against these guys, at all, and I do appreciate their personal experiences (and trust them entirely).
I am just getting a bit fed up with comments like those of "VEIL is worthless, alone...yada...yada..." coupled with private commentary from the likes of those like Vic (who have expressed reservations about posting success stories on RD.NET and therefore post them on STH instead for fear of being riduculed here).
That's where my frustration comes from.
I'd love the opportunity to figure out where VEIL as a POINT DEFENSE is "failing" on some of these particular vehicles. Why? I suspect the same "points" of "failure" for Veil, would likely also conitribute to PTs with actives as well, or a least potentially be so.
