Downsizing

For the 1977 model year, General Motors introduced a new type of full-size car. The "downsized" B body. It had the same room as the previous B cars, but weighed 400 lb less, had a smaller engine and got much better fuel efficiency.

This sparked a trend throughout the auto industry in downsizing family cars. Of course, GM continued, with in 1978 the new A-body getting the same treatment, with success. And even the X body cars were downsized and even made into a front-wheel drive family car. The F-cars got the fat trimmed as well for 1982. In all, this move really made GM some $$$ and for the most part, these were very good cars.

Ford as well made the old LTD into the "new" Panther LTD for 1979, whose chassis still lives on as the Crown Vic. Chrysler, too poor to develop a new car range, just rebodied their mid-size cars and called them full-size. These cars were a horrible flop. But Chrysler did have success with their also very small Omnirizon models the K-car.

Of course, imported cars were also very tiny. Surely some of us recall the first-generation Honda Civic, a car whose engine and transaxle could be lifted out by hand :lol: Or the Toyota Corolla, another car smaller than my sofa.

But since GM downsized in a big way in the late 1970's, cars have continually grown in size. A modern Honda Civic is far larger than an original Honda Accord. A Toyota Corolla is much bigger than an old Camry. A Pontiac Grand Prix is much bigger than a early 1980's LeMans.

In fact, the only downsizing attempt I have seen since the mid 1980's has been the restyle of the Infiniti Q45 for 1996. But now it's bigger than ever, and of course, the 1999 Mercedes S class.

Now, with ever-rising gas prices, will cars begin to downsize again? Or will the trend continue?

I don't think that we will ever downsize again to the point of the original Civic or Corolla in the US because people just won't accept it. What can I say, we like our cars the same way we like our value meals: supersized. But I really think that it's ending with the slow decline of the SUV craze. The death of the Ford Excursion shortly after its introduction proved that automakers in the US had reached the limit. The only reason the H2 persists is because its ridiculous size is just a byproduct of its image, which is what people pay for. The kind of person who would buy one is the same kind of person who isn't going to give a thought for how much it takes to put gas in it.

But, for better or for worse, I think that this kind of person is on his way out. Sure, there are still lots of them. But I think that fuel prices are finally high enough that people are going "Whoa, my tank costs how much to fill?" It's not the top end, the H2 drivers, who see this. It's the people in the middle who have been driving an Expedition, a Trailblazer, or a Grand Cherokee since the mid-90s after graduating from a minivan. They aren't buying the image, they're buying transportation that they feel safe and comfortable with. And one can only be so comfortable putting 25 gallons of premium in your tank at $2.71/gal at every fillup.

By the good graces of the auto industry, the options for this middle group are getting smaller and more reasonable. The SUV won't die but it will shrink. The Rav4, the Pacifica, the Forester, and a dozen others are there to give people their 23mpg instead of 16 without sacrificing that nice, high driving position and the belief that they can handle anything that Mother Nature can throw at them. (Sometimes the latter part is true, sometimes a bit misguided.)

As I see it, hybrid technology is the wild card. It is the one technological development that might actually save some of the larger vehicles, such as the Lexus RX400h. I don't see it breathing new life into the monsters, but it may just keep the size up a bit until standards change and the 30mpg that it gets is no longer impressive. Any way you cut it, physics and dollars will win-out in the end.

So to sum it up, the bottom end won't go anywhere but the top end will come down. The average American car 10 years from now will be quite a bit smaller than it is today.

Nice job explaining that brick I completly agree with you. If you can afford the $50,000 SUV you can defiantly afford the gas. Why isn't the demand of hybrid's so high? A car that gets 50 MPG is awsome! Is it true
about the battery in hybrids is expensive to fix?

There will still be large cars for folks who need to haul the family around, and there will be smaller comfortable cars for those that have a commute or parking issues.

I think all of these cars will continue to be more efficient, safer, and have more creature comforts.

Ed

As a honda head I've looked at the hybrids and the reason of most people not looking at them is that with the average driver putting on 12,000 miles a year it would take you 8-10 years to break over even point on a hybrid since they are more exspensive and the cells cost a nice chunk of change to replace.....but you do get a tax break for having a hybrid....

SUV sales often boil down to one thing, short mans disease :)

They all want to feel big and powerful in their big vehicle. Some people are just scared little rabbits hiding inside these things. They don't know how to drive so they figure the safest thing (for them) is to drive an Expedition.

I respect the contractor that hauls tools in his SUV or pickup truck. The construction worker, the person that tows a camper or 5th wheel. The people that actually use SUV and trucks for a purpose are just fine in my book. The people that just drive them around out of fear are completely lame. They are the reason why the gas prices are so high right now, you have to figure one SUV or large size truck can more then fuel one normal sized car. So in a sense for every SUV or truck on the road just add another car or so. Now do the math. We don't have enough fuel because we are using too much. This is a fact, not speculation.

So to all you SUV drivers...thanks a lot.....I can only hope you get T bonded by an 18 wheeler :)

Actually I found it funny, a mid sized truck rear ended a larger truck with a metal rail on the back end cutting the cab and the head of the driver clean off. Ha ha ha ha. The little car would have just got a cracked up front end.

For the record we own a truck, Nissan Frontier Crew cab. It's small sits up high and gets pretty good gas mileage.

This is a really really bad subject for me, pisses me off even.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by (in)Sanity

This is a really really bad subject for me, pisses me off even.

---

you don't say! tell us how you really feel :wink:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by (in)Sanity

SUV sales often boil down to one thing, short mans disease :)

They all want to feel big and powerful in their big vehicle. Some people are just scared little rabbits hiding inside these things. They don't know how to drive so they figure the safest thing (for them) is to drive an Expedition.

I respect the contractor that hauls tools in his SUV or pickup truck. The construction worker, the person that tows a camper or 5th wheel. The people that actually use SUV and trucks for a purpose are just fine in my book. The people that just drive them around out of fear are completely lame. They are the reason why the gas prices are so high right now, you have to figure one SUV or large size truck can more then fuel one normal sized car. So in a sense for every SUV or truck on the road just add another car or so. Now do the math. We don't have enough fuel because we are using too much. This is a fact, not speculation.

So to all you SUV drivers...thanks a lot.....I can only hope you get T bonded by an 18 wheeler :)

Actually I found it funny, a mid sized truck rear ended a larger truck with a metal rail on the back end cutting the cab and the head of the driver clean off. Ha ha ha ha. The little car would have just got a cracked up front end.

For the record we own a truck, Nissan Frontier Crew cab. It's small sits up high and gets pretty good gas mileage.

This is a really really bad subject for me, pisses me off even.

---

:roll:


"So to all you SUV drivers...thanks a lot.....I can only hope you get T bonded by an 18 wheeler :)" <------- maybe my Cummins turbo-diesel Ram will be lucky enough to T-bone your Nissan one day.

Not a very nice thing to say now, is it? :wink:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StealthR1

:roll:

"So to all you SUV drivers...thanks a lot.....I can only hope you get T bonded by an 18 wheeler :)" <------- maybe my Cummins turbo-diesel Ram will be lucky enough to T-bone your Nissan one day.

Not a very nice thing to say now, is it? :wink:

---

Being nice is not always required, I use to be a biker to by the way. Death doesn't bother me, it's one of the reasons I stopped ridding. Some people wanted me to stay around a bit longer.

Ohhh and just to help prove my point.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/27/markets/oil.reut/

"Oil prices jumped one percent Monday to move above $60 a barrel, a record, as robust U.S. demand, apparently unimpeded by high fuel costs, strained global production and refining capacity."

SUV's DEMAND twice as much fuel. Here in Phoenix looking around it appears about 40% of the vehicles on the road are SUV's and 10-20% trucks. Cars feel like a minority here. The amount of fuel used by these larger vehicles is over twice what the cars in the area are using. We are not talking little RAV 4's here. We are talking about Yukons and Expeditions and Explorers. Those that get around 12-14 mpg (or less). Compare that to a car that on average gets 24-30 mpg.

So yes, I once again thank the SUV drivers for the high fuel costs. They may not be the only reason but they sure don't help things out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by (in)Sanity

Ohhh and just to help prove my point.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/27/markets/oil.reut/

"Oil prices jumped one percent Monday to move above $60 a barrel, a record, as robust U.S. demand, apparently unimpeded by high fuel costs, strained global production and refining capacity."

SUV's DEMAND twice as much fuel. Here in Phoenix looking around it appears about 40% of the vehicles on the road are SUV's and 10-20% trucks. Cars feel like a minority here. The amount of fuel used by these larger vehicles is over twice what the cars in the area are using. We are not talking little RAV 4's here. We are talking about Yukons and Expeditions and Explorers. Those that get around 12-14 mpg (or less). Compare that to a car that on average gets 24-30 mpg.

So yes, I once again thank the SUV drivers for the high fuel costs. They may not be the only reason but they sure don't help things out.

---

That's a stretch at best.

A person that rides his/her bicycle to work may thank car drivers for wasting fuel driving their cars, particularly those that aren't filling all seats in a carpool. It's all a matter of perspective I suppose. "We" are never part of the problem, but we seem to have an innate ability to find blame.

A person driving their Nissan pu 15000+ miles a year getting high 20's mpg (that's what mine used to get, newer might get a little better) is using much more fuel than a guy like me that drives 10000 miles a year on average in my 4dr 4wd 2500 Dodge Ram. It's been my experience that those with larger, less fuel efficient vehicles, don't drive them as much. That's only my opinion as I don't have any data to back it up.

Fuel economy is a consideration when I purchase a vehicle. I am concerned about the cost of fuel just as many are... so when choosing a vehicle that meets my needs/wants I take that into serious consideration. That is why I drive a diesel in lieu of it's gasoline counterpart. My 7,200 lb truck gets low 20's, which is not stellar but pretty good considering vehicle size.

Have you considered how much fuel is burned with other forms of transportation? A quick example is the huge amount of Jet A an aircraft burns. Are the people that fly to vacations the cause of our fuel woes? I don't think it's quite as simplistic as that.

We just cannot argue that vehicle size is the cause of the current pricing structure. There are a multitude of other factors that must be considered in order to make a well informed argument. One of my pet peeves is arguments made with passion and not with thought.


You have made some valid points, but I believe the solution to the problem is a little more complex than simply getting rid of the evil SUV's.

It's not my intent to start a flame war. I respect your opinion, as I hope you do mine.

Take care and be safe.

I respect most all opinions. I'm not sure where you live, however here in Phoenix many people own nothing but large SUV's and or large trucks. They commute with them driving 20k+ miles a year in them. I think that is my gripe. Trucks are great when you need them, don't get me wrong. SUV's appear to be nice for certain familys with lots of kids or situations where they often have to haul lots of equipment and or people. I however don't see that out here. I see one person talking on their cell phones driving a totally empty well polished SUV or truck around all over the place. I've seen Dodge Ram 1500's that have never had a single thing hit the bed. You could eat off the thing. So I question why do people buy such vehicles if not just for status or because they want to feel "safe". We all know your not safe no matter what you drive. I've seen my share of all types of vehicles destroyed beyond recognition, SUV's, trucks, and cars. It's funny but van's are actually one of the safer vehicles on the road. They tend to handle side impacts a little better. The full frames on trucks are great unless you get hit be another truck or a car traveling at very high speeds. I know even a bike going 120+ can do a lot of damage to a car or truck.

So the question is why do people buy trucks and SUV's when they don't use them for what they were intended for. My hats off to the working man that needs that truck, and I criticize the single woman driving a Yokon to work every day out of fear. My wife drives our truck because she feels safe in it, and she has a perfect driving record. I drive the little VW because I'm use to riding bikes and have no fear of the people around me. Foolish perhaps but I'm saving gas and not putting all those around me at more risk by driving something larger then I need.

So here in Phoenix my assessment of where all the fuel is going is not at all off base, it's very very close to the facts. I guess other places don't suffer the same problem and that's a good thing. Just not the case out here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by (in)Sanity

Ohhh and just to help prove my point.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/27/markets/oil.reut/

"Oil prices jumped one percent Monday to move above $60 a barrel, a record, as robust U.S. demand, apparently unimpeded by high fuel costs, strained global production and refining capacity."

SUV's DEMAND twice as much fuel. Here in Phoenix looking around it appears about 40% of the vehicles on the road are SUV's and 10-20% trucks. Cars feel like a minority here. The amount of fuel used by these larger vehicles is over twice what the cars in the area are using. We are not talking little RAV 4's here. We are talking about Yukons and Expeditions and Explorers. Those that get around 12-14 mpg (or less). Compare that to a car that on average gets 24-30 mpg.

So yes, I once again thank the SUV drivers for the high fuel costs. They may not be the only reason but they sure don't help things out.

---

eugh yeah. If all SUV were traded for a car you wouldn't suddenly save all this fuel.

Look at what is going on in China and the rest of the world...

Look at the fact that the US hasn't had a new refinery in 20 years and one has recently gone offline

The oil is there in the ground. But no oil company is interested spending a few billion on a new refinery when it will make the prices less.

Quote:

---

eugh yeah. If all SUV were traded for a car you wouldn't suddenly save all this fuel.

Look at what is going on in China and the rest of the world...

Look at the fact that the US hasn't had a new refinery in 20 years and one has recently gone offline

The oil is there in the ground. But no oil company is interested spending a few billion on a new refinery when it will make the prices less.

---

Kind of like all those leaky faucets in the world huh. Too bad they add up to millions of gallons of water. If SUV's got 1 more mile to the gallon on average we would see a difference. Think bulk here. Yes, the refineries are a major problem, but why is that. The same refineries worked before. Now they can't produce enough...hmm. Gas prices will just keep going up..and up. I see even Hummer now makes a smaller version of their beast. Perhaps the tide will turn. I will keep wishing for it.

Yeah but - there are many more cars on the road

and each car drives a lot further!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SmaartAasSaabr

Yeah but - there are many more cars on the road

and each car drives a lot further!

---

Sure doesn't feel like it when I go out, I guess I'm being exposed to an exception rather then the rule. May explain why others don't see things the way I do. I'll have to find some of the highway cams.

Some traffic cams.

Traffic cams

Check out the Trucks/SUV to car ratio. Don't just do a single look and judge..watch it for a bit.

Edit:

Best view IMO

http://www.az511.com/Images/cameraim.../camera113.jpg

Note: This image will update on a reload. I think every few minutes.

(in)Sanity,
I see where you're coming from as far as people in AZ driving trucks and SUV's that don't use them as intended. I for one use the heck out of my full sized 4x4. i use it to haul, go 4 wheeling (lightly, since i don't want it to get damaged. :) ) pulling a trailer, jet ski, and 4 wheel drive in the snow or at the beach. (San Diego roadtrips) I could never go back to a car, unless it was a second vehicle, since i use mine way too much.

I was just talking to someone the other day, and her ex would always buy a large 4x4 just because he wanted to say he had a 4 wheel drive vehicle, even though he NEVER used 4 wheel drive. Having lived here and in Cali, i noticed a lot more people buy trucks and SUV's out here, more as a type of staus symbol, then the actual need for a larger and/or 4 wheel drive vehicle. A lot of them seem to buy them to put some chrome 20's on them and a loud stereo with huge subs.
So it could be geographic, i found that it's easier to find 4x4's out here as opposed to say San Diego.

Quote:

---

I was just talking to someone the other day, and her ex would always buy a large 4x4 just because he wanted to say he had a 4 wheel drive vehicle, even though he NEVER used 4 wheel drive.

---

I like to call this "penis compensating", but that just tends to piss certain people off. One has to wonder :) I came to Phoenix from Boston where not as many SUV's exist. It's pretty hard to double park them as opposed to a Civic.

Downtown Montreal you hardly ever see an SUV unless it is a black Escalade or Range Rover, when you need to meet the drug dealers...

There are a lot of Honda CR-V(of course! It's a Honda!), Chevy Equinox, etc small "station wagon on steroids".

I don't think a vehicle like an Equinox or CR-V consumes a great deal more fuel than my definately-a-car 900 turbo. But I have a heavy foot, both figuratively and literally. So perhaps the comparison isn't exact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by (in)Sanity

I like to call this "penis compensating", but that just tends to piss certain people off. One has to wonder I came to Phoenix from Boston where not as many SUV's exist. It's pretty hard to double park them as opposed to a Civic.

---

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: the way she tells it that sounds about right. :lol: :lol:

But back to topic, :wink: , I think they will decrease somewhat, not so much in interior space, but in compacting the engine and drivetrain as new technologies improve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SmaartAasSaabr

Now, with ever-rising gas prices, will cars begin to downsize again? Or will the trend continue?

---

Actually, I know I am gonna sound numb to it all, but I dont care..:)

As long as I can buy a V-8 powered rear wheel drive 2 door "muscle type car" I am happy.........:)

I have never had a 4 0r 6 cyl , four door or front wheel drive anything.

Except for some of my P/U trucks and they were 4x4.

Give me more power............LOL

Have funnnnnnnnnnn

Yeah I just wish I could too (damn GM Canada!!)

A 6-speed GTO gets better gas milage than my little 2 litre 5-speed Saab! :shock:

amazing huh:)

Gm does play games with those gas mileage numbers thought.....LOL

My SS had that silly skip shift.........it forced you to go from First to fourth!!!!!!!!!! If you tried to shift between 10 and 20 mph or something like that. What a PITA. Disabled that, first thing...............!

So using that rare piece of enginering marvel they got 27 mpg highway.

Of course yours may vary..........I never got better than 21.5 Highway.

Around town 17 or 18.

So what does the SAAB get..........??


HAve funnnnnnnnnnnnnn

I remember the guys at Powertrain said "don't you go and cut this green wire, that would be a bad thing to do, wink wink" :mrgreen:

Yeah they are always saying like 32mpg in a Corvette when going 90 mi/h... :lol:

My 900 gets maybe 32mpg at a solid 3000r/min (120km/h, 75mi/h) but the faster I go the faster it sucks down the gas, and I like to go fast... I typically get about 24mpg when I use 87 octane and 23 when I use 92 (and get more BOOST!). Most of my driving is highway at 130-160km/h, 80-100, occasional spikes up to the peg, and occasional town driving but not much.

Thats not too shabby mileage for having fun...:)

I always have good intentions on a trip to visit my folks which is 2 hours on interstate. I start out by wondering if I can get 27 MPG or better...")

Actually, in 6th gear at just under 2000 rpm, I am just under 90 mph. I think at that speed and RPM I could get more than 27 mpg.

Alas, it never happens.......LOL

First left lane bandit that does not move over in 30 seconds............ Its done...........and I put my foot in it.

Have fun...........