$6 Diffusing Tape vs. $100 Veil Reflection/Night Shot Images

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42...dgixxer/01.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42...dgixxer/02.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42...dgixxer/03.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42...dgixxer/04.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42...dgixxer/05.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42...dgixxer/06.jpg


Pic #1-Top Plate Laser Shield and Diffusing Tap, Bottom-State Plate

Pic#2-Top Diffusing Tape ONLY, Bottom-State Plate

Pics#3-Top Plate-Diffusing tape only, Bottom-Top half-State Plate Bottom Half-Diffusing Tape ONLY

Pic#4-Top State Plate w/ Diffusing Tape
Bottom Left=State Plate
Bottom Right=State Plate w/ Laser Shield ONLY

Pic#5 Top State Plate w/Diffusing Tape
Bottom Left -State Plate
Bottom right-State Plate w/ 65% Tint Film Glossy Side OUT

Pic#6 Top State Plate w/Diffusing Tape
Bottom Left -State Plate
Bottom right-State Plate w/ 65% Tint Film Glossy Side IN

The headlights are Diffusing Tape with Veil on Top, seems to stick to it good, Sidemarkers are ONLY Veil

Would it diffuse IR laser? Or is that a night shot with your camera?

Very interesting results.

I don't know, I'm looking into buying a laser gun, any idea's and price range on laser guns would greatly be appreciated

Edited-Thats my digital camera 3.34 Megapixel w/ Flash, I don't think it has night vision, perhaps I should pull out my Song Camcorder and it will show IR better

I see you've already seen the other thread. Range finders with a speed function(there aren't that many) are going to be your cheapest option if you just need to test how reflective your car is and what not.

I don't know if it will absorb IR, far as I know

welding shade len's absorb 90%
Sunglass shades about 15%
Veil is somewhere around 40-50%, best guess

:shock: Wow!

That's pretty darned cool! 8)

Can't wait to see some IR results!

Here's some lab tests:
http://www.radardetector.net/viewtopic.php?t=2635

Dr Jim,

Your grasp of the historical posts on this forum is simply mind boggling. :wink:

Veil Guy

8)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onefastzx9r

I don't know, I'm looking into buying a laser gun, any idea's and price range on laser guns would greatly be appreciated

Edited-Thats my digital camera 3.34 Megapixel w/ Flash, I don't think it has night vision, perhaps I should pull out my Song Camcorder and it will show IR better

---

Yes, please re-do the photos with your sony camcorder in night shot mode. You are just seeing reflection of visible light with your regular camera and flash. The results may or may not be very different.

Ideally, we want a material that does NOT reduce visible light so it is not noticable to the eye, but does reduce IR spectrum light.

Also what exactly do you mean by diffusing tape?

ok, I'll do that, i'll charge up the batteries on the Sony and get some night shots, any 3M scotch tape product works, I used transparent duct tape because its high temperature and weather resistant, I put veil on top of the tape on the headlights and its been through rain and car wash's with no sign of chipping off but the license plate is just tape, i'll be back

I got my camcorder charged up, what exactly am I looking for? I'm guessing I looking to see how visible the plate is compared to the state plate? the more visible the plate is in night mode the greater the intensity in the IR spectrum?

Yes, film it in the dark or in a garage so that the only light is from the infraread beam from the camcorder.

Ok night shot, sorry its blurry but tell me what you all think, I took the picture of the night shot screen at different angles, that bright thing in the middle is the nightshot display icon and the green thng is the STDBY icon on the Sony Camcorder

There is no way u can have total darkness in the garage, I used a cell phone display screen light, it was the smallest illumination device i could find, comments?



Left Plate-Top half-Diffusing Tape ONLY
Bottom Half-State Plate

Middle Plate-State plate

Right Plate-Laser Shield ONLY

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42...IC0341copy.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42...IC0347copy.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42...IC0350copy.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42...IC0351copy.jpg

Seems like it works.

+1 - I'm definitely no expert at this, but it does seem like the tape is working.....

Cool! :)

I guess the final step would be some quantitative testing against police LIDAR setup. Anyone in your area?

i got the money to buy the range finder, it will set back my money saved for the laser jammer but the LI doesn't look like its coming out anytime soon, u all think its a good investment, laser is the future and its best to start testing now

I wouldn't mind some technical information on the range finder

BTW-notice on the photos, the plates are upside down, since my camera lens was on the same side, I turned it upside down, u'll get the point i hope

Unfortunately, no ideas about the rangefinder, bruddah. :oops: Hopefully, the others here will come in to guide you on this one.

:)

After looking at your pix a little more, I do seem to see that the tape, which itself conforms better to the plate's raised lettering, does seem to also let this lettering "peek through" a little more - as compared to the LaserShield, whose "second layer" surface essentially blends everything into one another.

Now, my question would be two-fold:

(1) whether if the slightly "raised" lettering of the tape-covered plate would give it a slight disadvantage

and

(2) if #1 is a concern, then whether if "dressing" the raised letters (i.e. roughing them up a little, putting a coat of VEIL over them, etc.) would help the issue?

:?:

And just as an aside....since this is the VEIL sub-Forum, it would be interesting to also see a side-by-side of a VEIL-dressed plate, compared to the rest of the setup, too! :)

Thanks again, though, for taking the time-out to do these pix/shots! :)

I wonder how this stuff would go on headlights, and if it would help at all.

yes I noticed that also, the letters are more visible on the taped plate since the tape molds around each letter, I think it would be at a disadvantage but remember the laser shield is noticable the tape is not, I guess I could apply veil on the letters and it should take care of that issue, i would take the tape over the laser shield since its not noticable and less risk of getting stopped by a LEO

No one in there right mind would put veil on the plates, its way way too noticable but as for a comparison I would consider doing it just for the visible and night shot test

since I wasted so much veil applying it to the headlights, I would have none left if I need another coat in a year or so, so I am reluctant to use my last 2 ounces of veil on the plate but what the hell I will do a test on the plate with veil

ok, I have taken pictures of a veiled plate but my computer does not recognize my camera anymore, I can't figure out what happened, I think the motherboard is about to take a $hit

But my conclusions are that during reflection photos Veil reflects like a regular plate but in night mode the Veiled plate is completely dark, it is obvious now what Veil does to IR light, the diffusing tape darkens slightly but nothing compared to Veil, the laser shield had the same visibility as the diffusing tape. So the experiment showed that veil blocks IR light during night shot and laser shield has no effect during night shot and diffusing tape has no effect during night shot.

I am honest about my results and would tell u everything that I observed. Atleast my headlights are veiled but I will not veil the license plate even with the lightest coat, it is simply too dark. Parts of my hypothesis failed but I proved that laser shield is ineffective, I would consider buying a clear Veil coating if they ever produce one.

^ Definitely, thank you for your candor and honesty with the results! :)

Indeed, VEIL'ing the plates is not something that's viable for all of us. That's definitely a personal-preference as well as, of course, enforcement-practice related concern. This was a very valid concern for you to cite.

Similarly, I think you also did well to point out that LaserShield isn't a viable option "across the board" for many here, either. Many areas have laws specifically forbidding such coverings, even if they are just cosmetic and totally clear/transparent "dust/weather" covers. Certainly, use of the tape would be a very, very good way - it seems - to cut down on laser return.

Again, thank you for your time spent in-testing as well as in making these posts, and also thank you for your candor and honesty in addressing our concerns and in posting your results! Good stuff! 8) :)

I'll have the pictures tomorrow, using my brothers camera, his is more clearer anyway

onefastzx9r,

Don't completely discount the efficacy of the lasershield. While its mechanism for reducing lidar reflection is different from Veil, this does not mean its not effective in its own way.

Years ago, thestaton (Mike) and I ran some tests (one of the first to actually document via video on the web, actually) with Veil and the lasershield together - Veil on the lights and the LS on the front plate - and, indeed, the lasershield was able to reduce capture range to about 600+ feet on a front plate and a bit better when Veil was applied to it (one light coat only) - down from about 2000 feet, untreated. This proved to be about the same as a Veil'd plate cover, while providing a less obvious appearance (not as dark) on the plate.

There is some video to document these findings...I need to come up with an appropriate link for you to see for yourself.

Veil Guy 8)

These are some preliminary results, I found out that more light in night mode is required to get the full effect of the Veil, I'll have to wait until I have access to another camera, but Veil should be the darkest although the pictures say otherwise. Doesn't matter its not like I'm putting it on my plate anyway. The laser shield has no effect like the Veil, the diffusing tape has some effect but nothing like the Veil. The veil does not make the picture completely dark but does make the plate appear darker.

Pic #1-left to right=Half Diffusing Tape (Bottom), Full Diffusing Tape, Veiled Plate, State Plate

Pic #2 -left to right=Half Diffusing Tape (Bottom), Full Diffusing Tape, Veiled Plate, State Plate

Pic #3 -left to right=State Plate, Veiled Plate, Full Diffusing Tape, Half Diffusing Tape (Top)

Pic#4- left to right=Half Diffusing Tape (Bottom), Full Diffusing Tape, Veiled Plate, State Plate



http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42.../threecopy.jpg
Half Diffusing Tape (Bottom), Full Diffusing Tape, Veiled Plate, State Plate


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42...r/fourcopy.jpg
Half Diffusing Tape (Bottom), Full Diffusing Tape, Veiled Plate, State Plate

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42...gixxer/two.jpg
State Plate, Veiled Plate, Full Diffusing Tape, Half Diffusing Tape (Top)


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42...er/onecopy.jpg
Half Diffusing Tape (Bottom), Full Diffusing Tape, Veiled Plate, State Plate

Wait, I'm confused. From the pictures, it seems that the diffusing tape is doing a better job at "darkening" out the plate than Veil is. But, at least from what I'm understanding from your words, it seems that you are saying that "the diffusing tape has some effect but nothing like the Veil." I'm confused. Can you help me out here?

yea sorry, I'm gonna redo the pictures because I figured out that more ambient light is required in night mode but at that time I didn't have access to a working digital camera.


The diffusing tape and laser shield have the same shade (perhaps the angle makes the diffusing tape slightly darker in night mode but overall the sam shade) which are slightly darker than a state plate but the Veil plate is darker than the other plates. I'll get better pictures with more ambient where Veil shows its full effect. The pictures were done again with a cell phone light and did not show the effect very well in night mode.

So if laser shield and the diffusing tape have the same effect (shade in night mode) it may diffuse IR beam slightly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onefastzx9r

There is no way u can have total darkness in the garage, I used a cell phone display screen light, it was the smallest illumination device i could find, comments?

---

The camcorder provides illumination (unless you have that turned off in the menus) via a bright infrared LED on its front, so ideally you wouldn't be using the cell phone, as you are still picking up visible light.
But your results do seem to be pretty clear.

ah....ok....I think it has an LED, I'll use it next time

Yea, the Sonys with nightshots are supposed to have two little IR LEDs. They are usually below the lens. Actually, you can see them light up (two red dots) when you are in nightshot mode.

Well, this got me really curious, so I went to buy some duct tape :)

In case you're wondering, it looks like this http://www.3m.com/brands/scotch/tran...ape/index.html. Just go to Wal-mart; it'll be in the tape section. ($5)

So I got home a started taking pictures of anything that was retroreflective :P

Here are some of the "results."

Here are some retroreflective headphones I have. The tape cut down on some of the reflectivity.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...h/SNV32594.jpg

Here is a picture of a retroreflective sticker I have on the lid of my laptop. the top left corner is the equivalent of having two pieces of tape stacked on each other. Reflectivity was cut down a bit.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...h/SNV32592.jpg

Here is my roomate's car's tail light. You can clearly see where there was no tape.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...h/SNV32581.jpg

Of course, all of these tests don't have much "value" since they weren't taken with IR light.

I'll see if I can get something with a remote control.

onefastzx9r,

Just to give you a heads up:
You have enough information in those pictures for LEO's browsing this thread to indentify you if those are your license plates.

So are you now going to cover the front and back of your car with translucent duct tape? :) ;)

I think you are missing a bit of the point here. If the tape is blocking the reflectivity of visible light, then you are reducing your safety, perhaps when the car is parked at the side of the road at night and someone no longer sees its reflectors (and assuming you are not one of those idiots who drives through driving rain and snow with their lights off). Likewise on headlights you want to allow visible light through so their output is still effective. You want materials that transmit visible light but block infrared. That is the apparent feature of veil.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jwardell

You want materials that transmit visible light but block infrared. That is the apparent feature of veil.

---

Veil does reduce reflectivity of light in the visible spectrum too. If Veil was clear and still cut down or diffused IR (904nm range), then all/most of such experiments would cease.

^ +1.

Also, I don't think that either the OP nor ELVATO meant to imply that they'd use this type of treatment on their critical vehicle lighting nor necessary safety reflective surfaces (i.e. reflective corner markers).

Rather, it was to show how much of an effect this tape had on such reflections (be it visible light or IR), as well as to demonstrate its use on potentially problematic (legally, i.e. concerns with LaserShield or VEIL) - but otherwise easily "usable" - areas such as the license plate(s).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

^ +1.

Also, I don't think that either the OP nor ELVATO meant to imply that they'd use this type of treatment on their critical vehicle lighting nor necessary safety reflective surfaces (i.e. reflective corner markers).

Rather, it was to show how much of an effect this tape had on such reflections (be it visible light or IR), as well as to demonstrate its use on potentially problematic (legally, i.e. concerns with LaserShield or VEIL) - but otherwise easily "usable" - areas such as the license plate(s).

---

Yea, it was more to give an idea. It's main use, if it worked would probably be taping a plate, as this isn't exactly "safety" equiptment. If it works, think of it as poor man's plate Veil/plate cover.

Either way, in the tail light shot, it didn't completely block out the "visible" spectrum. You could still see the red, it just didn't light up as efficiantly.

Tonight, I'll do some further testing to see just how much it reduces light output on headlights, and overall reflectivity of the tail light reflectors. Then again, I personally like leaving my car on the side of the road all too often, since there are idots on the road that, reflectors or not, will still manage to hit your car.

Again, these tests are all on the visible spectrum. Don't have a IR camera lying around (parents have one.) I tried some tests with an IR remote, but the output was too weak, therefore making any tests inconclusive.

Went out and did some more testing with the tape. Of course this is all visual spectrum. More to see just how the tape looks compared to untaped. I guess as long as you put it over the rear reflectors, it'll cut down on reflectivity.

Front shot of headlights. Tape is in the driver side, both headlight and fog light.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...ntlightson.jpg

Front shot, passanger headlight untaped.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...assagnerHL.jpg

Front shot, driver headlight taped.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...verHLtaped.jpg

Rear shot, lights off. Kinnda close. Tape on driver side, only on "reflectors" and left side of plate.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...t-flashoff.jpg

Rear shot, lights off. Farther away
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...ityfarther.jpg

Rear shot, headlights on.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...t-lightson.jpg

Rear shot, brakes being engaged.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...kelightson.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LittleOverPSL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jwardell

You want materials that transmit visible light but block infrared. That is the apparent feature of veil.

---

Veil does reduce reflectivity of light in the visible spectrum too. If Veil was clear and still cut down or diffused IR (904nm range), then all/most of such experiments would cease.

---

Yes, but, one would hope anyway, that veil blocks a large percentasge of IR at the cost of blocking a much smaller percentage of visible light. If not, then it's just greyish paint, and a good gimmick.
I figured Veilguy would chime in with a technical defense before now...

jwardell,

I used to engage in some [related] discussions until recently, when our company became the subject of outlandish ridicule and flaming by a group of uninformed and mean-spirited individuals who continue to this day to denigrate the product and question our technology. Adding insult to injury, [some of] these same individuals felt it appropriate to openly discuss our IP as a means to further undermine our company's products. You can tell affected individuals within their sphere by examining their commentary in the different Veil threads - almost all of them have never actually purchased/used Veil nor used Veil with their radar detectors and/or laser jammers against real speedtraps.

We have since decided to refrain engaging in public discourse about the specifics of how [why] Veil works and our future product plans - for obvious reasons.

With all that said, you are correct in your assessment, however. Other materials which may have less of a visual impact in the VIS spectrum may or may not exist, but there are not available to the civilian population. Capisce?

BTW, I did provide some commentary to the originator of this thread despite the premise of this thread's title and I don't believe we received an acknowledgment.

Veil Guy 8)

I really hate when things like that prevent further discussion. And I've definitely noticed that while you are generally present here, it definitely seems you are holding back on full answers to things. (Like mentioning an updated formula long ago but no updates...) But I certainly notice a lot of criticism (here and elsewhere) of products when they haven't even tried them.

Personally I have a tough time believing anyone on either side till I prove things for myself. I've been waiting for both funds and warm weather, but I do plan to get a bottle soon and rest assured I will be running it through my own tests. Not that I expect you to be familiar with my web site, but I think the same way with many other products I apply or install in my car, and perform and publish my own testing as well.

It's paranoid, but it's worth it to really know, for yourself, that a product works and how well it works. I've found a few that do so well I can enthusiastically stand behind them.

jwardell,

For me as well. I really used to look forward to participating and communicating with both users and non users of Veil, in part as a means of corporate good will and in part because I thoroughly enjoyed the RD.NET members.

Unfortunately the amount of acidic/corrosive rancor that was introduced by a destructive few towards myself, the Veil product as well as other manufacturers and our individuals has and continues to be a set-back.

Such attacks hurt on a personal level, as much of my life and others have been dedicated to producing such unique product[s] for the enthusiast driving public of which I am one. Fortunately, our technology has other applications that fall outside of the sphere of this specialized market...

It's really ironic that these very individuals that purport to carry the banner of truth are actually doing a disservice by doing the opposite.

Your sincere questions, however, are totally understood and appreciated and I would like to proffer some responses which may be helpful.

About the technology:

- Veil is stealth technology.
- Stealth materials like ones utilized in "Have Blue" (aka F117A) do not provide "invisibility."
- Shape is still the biggest factor in maximizing the stealth nature of an object.
- The military has control of the designs and shapes (which maximize stealthiness & minimize reflectiveness) of their assets.
- Veil does not have control over the designs and shapes of automobiles and motorcycles.
- Veil effectively eliminates the most reflective portions of automobiles, the headlights, fog lights, directional indicators, and plates.
- Veil does not eliminate the remaining areas of reflection that are not treated.
- The shape and color of these untreated areas may have enough residual reflection to allow certain laser guns in certain situations against certain treated vehicles to obtain readings despite the use of Veil leading some to incorrectly believe that Veil does little or nothing as a result.
- The perception that Veil needs to be "stronger" to improve the stealth performance is incorrect and misguided as the areas which are not treated are the contributing factors to punch-throughs, not Veil.
- Those same difficult vehicles to effectively cloak with Veil are likely the same vehicles that will be harder for a laser jammer to effectively work without sizable punchthroughs (PTs).
- When used in combination with laser jammers (an active countermeasure) Veil will further reduce or eliminate the PTs that exists on these vehicles.
- Veil will always allow a jammer to do its job easier or more effectively.
- Veil will enable a jammer to work effectively when its not possible to mount the jammer heads in the preferred location (ie; low on the bumper).
- Veil plus a 2 head system can provide performance that exceeds a 3 or 4 head system that is used alone.

About Us:

- We took our time to develop an affective stealth product and we resisted the temptation to produce a product quickly to get out the door.
- We've produce literally thousands of experiments and formulations until selecting one that met a host of rigorous requirements of [sometimes] conflicting interests (think all season dry/wet versus snow performance).
- Before selling product one, we sought out the recognized and established testers/authorities to obtain an independent certification.
- We have selected on the top dealers with the highest integrity to represent our product, including Radarbusters.
- We have avoided allowing our products and brand to be associated with dealers who offer certain bogus "countermeasures" which will remain unnamed.
- We have supported the healthy growth of this forum as a founding/contributing manufacturer for three plus years.
- We were one of the first companies to be advocates for the Guys Of Lidar for their own sake.
- We have prepared unique and informative articles about radar detectors as a means to "give something back" and raise the bar in knowledge for enthusiast driving market.
- We have been vetted by MotorTrend, SML, RT, as well as the GoL on more than one occasion.
- We continue to engage in constructive dialogue with this forum's members whenever possible.

When I attempted to share this factual information in a constructive fashion once before, some months ago, I was insulted and the company was accused as being a "sham."

I can fully understand your particular doubts, but at this point, after three plus years, I given up trying to convert every single doubter that exists - that will be impractical which is why we entrusted the Guys of Lidar to test Veil for themselves on several different occasions and on some forum member's own vehicles. Compared to some "other" would-be testers, GoL has repeatedly demonstrated a desire to maintain a level of integrity that I can admire.

BTW, you don't have to believe my word, Roy has always stood by the products with which he sells. He'll stand by you...and us by him which makes all this pretty simple, really.

We've have made and continue to make the most sincere efforts where ever possible...But, for some, this still isn't good enough.

Josh, rest assured we will continue in this mold and I am going to try to focus my energies to moving things forward positively and less towards going-back negatively and will continue to treat RD.NET forum members with the same dignity and respect with which we would appreciate.

PS: I really like your LED band identifiers on the V1! Perhaps the signal strength meter could be like this: 1st two green, next three yellow, remaining red. If you come up with something, I may send you mine for conversion, if you are up for that.

Veil Guy 8)