Remote installation antenna orientation?

[CJR238]

Would be interesting to see results. I'd do some myself, but I simply don't have the time.

VG

Shorten your responses and get to the point and you will have a ton of time.

[Veil Guy]

No I am NOT an RD engineer, nor did I claim it but I talk to one.

Since you have your doubts, why not run it by Mike B? This was where this information came from!

So I guess he doesn't know what he's talking about and both you guys know better.

While you are referring to Wikipedia...

Hubris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Debating points, OK. Insulting remarks, NOT.

VG

[yellowcab]

Gentlemen, let us disagree about this topic civilly, and please stay on topic.

[Veil Guy]

Perhaps MB will contribute a post here. We spoke about it this morning before I posted.

Interestingly enough I did some quick browsing myself and found:

Wave Polarization and Antenna Polarization

Notice the following remarks:

Suppose now that a linearly polarized antenna is trying to receive a circularly polarized wave. Equivalently, suppose a circularly polarized antenna is trying to receive a linearly polarized wave.

What is the resulting Polarization Loss Factor?

Recall that circular polarization is really two orthongal linear polarized waves 90 degrees out of phase. Hence, a linearly polarized (LP) antenna will simply pick up the in-phase component of the circularly polarized (CP) wave. As a result, the LP antenna will have a polarization mismatch loss of 0.5 (-3dB), no matter what the angle the LP antenna is rotated to.

[Veil Guy]

CJ,

Quite correct. I don't run my detectors vertically. But that's not the point. Perhaps you should retread the OP. Looks to me that the gentleman had no choice to and this discussion was about his situation, not mine.

VG

[nine_c1]

Perhaps MB will contribute a post here. We spoke about it this morning before I posted.

Interestingly enough I did some quick browsing myself and found:

Wave Polarization and Antenna Polarization

Notice the following remarks:

Suppose now that a linearly polarized antenna is trying to receive a circularly polarized wave. Equivalently, suppose a circularly polarized antenna is trying to receive a linearly polarized wave.

What is the resulting Polarization Loss Factor?

Recall that circular polarization is really two orthongal linear polarized waves 90 degrees out of phase. Hence, a linearly polarized (LP) antenna will simply pick up the in-phase component of the circularly polarized (CP) wave. As a result, the LP antenna will have a polarization mismatch loss of 0.5 (-3dB), no matter what the angle the LP antenna is rotated to.

VG you simply have an issue admitting when you are wrong or have an incorrect understanding of how radar works. You continue to argue the point and maintain your position by digging up abstract pieces of information when you truly do not understand how all the pieces fit together.

First off......EVERY electromagnetic wave has two orthongal (90 degrees out of phase) components and those components would be the Electric Field and the Magnetic Field. So whether the radar wave is Vertically Polarized, Horizontally Polarized, Dual Polarized (all forms of linear polarity) or Circularly Polarized, these two fields always coexist and are 90 degrees out of phase with one another.

Next, all forms of linear polarity are compatible with circular polarity since circularly polarity rotates through every axis. While a vertically polarized antenna is no more optimized than a horizontally polarized antenna for receiving a circularly polarized signal in free space, it is much preferred over the horizontal for receiving the same signal (circularly polarized signal) near the ground. AGAIN......and go verify this with your expert engineer Michael Batton......Veritical polarity does a MUCH BETTER job of propogating NEAR THE GROUND.

This is why.....and these are facts.....every linearly polarized mobile radar ever developed was or is VERTICALLY polarized (Stalker ATR, Kustom Falcon HR, Kustom RP-1.....etc.) and every photo radar was or is HORIZONTALLY polarized.

Likewise, EVERY radar detector manufacturer.......including your pal Michael at Whister.....selected a VERTICALLY polarized horn(s) to stuff inside their radar detector. Because a VERTICALLY polarized horn is SUPERIOR over a horizontally polarized horn at picking up radar (even circularly polarized signals) near the ground.

I made a good informative post for folks looking to learn about radar fundamentals and corrected your misinformation about the importance of mounting a detector correctly (flat instead of vertical). Then you re-enforce your bad advice with more mis-interpreted facts you quickly dug up.

Do us all a favor and stop it.

[Veil Guy]

Perhaps MB will contribute a post here. We spoke about it this morning before I posted.

Interestingly enough I did some quick browsing myself and found:

Wave Polarization and Antenna Polarization

Notice the following remarks:

Suppose now that a linearly polarized antenna is trying to receive a circularly polarized wave. Equivalently, suppose a circularly polarized antenna is trying to receive a linearly polarized wave.

What is the resulting Polarization Loss Factor?

Recall that circular polarization is really two orthongal linear polarized waves 90 degrees out of phase. Hence, a linearly polarized (LP) antenna will simply pick up the in-phase component of the circularly polarized (CP) wave. As a result, the LP antenna will have a polarization mismatch loss of 0.5 (-3dB), no matter what the angle the LP antenna is rotated to.

VG you simply have an issue admitting when you are wrong or have an incorrect understanding of how radar works. You continue to argue the point and maintain your position by digging up abstract pieces of information when you truly do not understand how all the pieces fit together.

First off......EVERY electromagnetic wave has two orthongal (90 degrees out of phase) components and those components would be the Electric Field and the Magnetic Field. So whether the radar wave is Vertically Polarized, Horizontally Polarized, Dual Polarized (all forms of linear polarity) or Circularly Polarized, these two fields always coexist and are 90 degrees out of phase with one another.

Next, all forms of linear polarity are compatible with circular polarity since circularly polarity rotates through every axis. While a vertically polarized antenna is no more optimized than a horizontally polarized antenna for receiving a circularly polarized signal in free space, it is much preferred over the horizontal for receiving the same signal (circularly polarized signal) near the ground. AGAIN......and go verify this with your expert engineer Michael Batton......Veritical polarity does a MUCH BETTER job of propogating NEAR THE GROUND.

This is why.....and these are facts.....every linearly polarized mobile radar ever developed was or is VERTICALLY polarized (Stalker ATR, Kustom Falcon HR, Kustom RP-1.....etc.) and every photo radar was or is HORIZONTALLY polarized.

Likewise, EVERY radar detector manufacturer.......including your pal Michael at Whister.....selected a VERTICALLY polarized horn(s) to stuff inside their radar detector. Because a VERTICALLY polarized horn is SUPERIOR over a horizontally polarized horn at picking up radar (even circularly polarized signals) near the ground.

I made a good informative post for folks looking to learn about radar fundamentals and corrected your misinformation about the importance of mounting a detector correctly (flat instead of vertical). Then you re-enforce your bad advice with more mis-interpreted facts you quickly dug up.

Do us all a favor and stop it.

I would appreciate you keep your arrogance and ego in check.

If my representation of the information proves incorrect (or misunderstood) from Mike, I would be happy to make revisions (and edit my previous posts). I have no problem with that (despite your insistence to the contrary).

My understanding why Whistler made the change (as expressed by Mike to me yesterday) is accurate. They made the change to vertical polarization because of their revision to their detector design, not for a performance increase. I think Mike would know their reasons as he is their chief senior engineer.

Yes the hand-held ATRs for example or vertically polarized, but they can be effectively targeted by the officer with the hand-hold to the 90 degrees to the side to effectively make the transmitting radar "horizontally polarized" by doing so. That was my point.

Mike also told me that some photo radars in Europe can be found configured either way. I think he would know about such things because he designs detectors specifically for those markets. We'll see if he elects to make a follow-on post here. Then you may call into question HIS knowledge.

I asked you privately once, and now I am going to make one more request in this thread, please discuss the issues without resulting to bullying. If you can't improve your tone, then that will be another matter and I remind you to reread the rules here. This forum's tone is going to better than what it is on other forums and what it was historically. I am asking you one final time.

We can disagree here at times, but we must always be agreeable in our disagreement. Personal issues that obviously exist with you have no place here in public threads.

Do us all a favor and stop it.


VG

[CJR238]

CJ,

Quite correct. I don't run my detectors vertically. But that's not the point. Perhaps you should retread the OP. Looks to me that the gentleman had no choice to and this discussion was about his situation, not mine.

VG

I read the OP, and even though he had no choice its good to be clear on the subject and not cloud it with doubt. It simply wont preform well and he should ideally seek another option.

Only run a RD flat/horizontal, but of course there are acceptations to the rule like if you only see horizontally-polarized photo radar. And if you have any doubts just reference your own forum and distinguished members of the passed. I don't think you would doubt the accumulative knowledge of the professor, MEM-TEK and now Nine in this thread. No need for me or you to test something well known for the passed 7+ years.

In the missing video below it showed MEM-TEK rotating his RD vertically as it was alerting. Once completely vertical it stopped detecting the K band door opener. As he rotated back horizontally/flat it started to detect the K band door opener.
http://www.radardetector.net/forums/...light=vertical


Hopefully you will update your posts for future reference even though it seems we scared away the OP.

Some more references from RD.net:

http://www.radardetector.net/forums/...e+door+openers...

Radar Detector Tests and Reviews by Guys of LIDAR - LASER

[Veil Guy]

CJ,

Quite correct. I don't run my detectors vertically. But that's not the point. Perhaps you should retread the OP. Looks to me that the gentleman had no choice to and this discussion was about his situation, not mine.

VG

I read the OP, and even though he had no choice its good to be clear on the subject and not cloud it with doubt. It simply wont preform well and he should ideally seek another option.

Only run a RD flat/horizontal, but of course there are acceptations to the rule like if you only see horizontally-polarized photo radar. And if you have any doubts just reference your own forum and distinguished members of the passed. I don't think you would doubt the accumulative knowledge of the professor, MEM-TEK and now Nine in this thread. No need for me or you to test something well known for the passed 7+ years.

In the missing video below it showed MEM-TEK rotating his RD vertically as it was alerting. Once completely vertical it stopped detecting the K band door opener. As he rotated back horizontally/flat it started to detect the K band door opener.
http://www.radardetector.net/forums/...light=vertical


Hopefully you will update your posts for future reference even though it seems we scared away the OP.

Some more references from RD.net:

http://www.radardetector.net/forums/...e+door+openers...

Radar Detector Tests and Reviews by Guys of LIDAR - LASER

Unfortunately that's what happens when the posts are predominately attacking. That's the real destruction of such things. We've all been in the forums long enough to know this and yet some still must insist on doing so.

I think Mike is going to post some clarifying information here.

I am going to revise my post as it relates to the circular polarization comment. Mike tends to refer to circularly polarized radar as "non-polarized" because there is no ONE predominate polarization and hence the reference.

Just like you were "attacked" sometime ago, I didn't let it stand. This forum is going to be run differently today. Such personal attacks or "war with words" is not going to be permitted here. We can debate topics and either agree or disagree but personal insults, etc., only serve to undermine the cohesiveness of the forum.

Mike did indicate this morning that he expects about a 2db loss as a result of the reflector use, but that should be about it. If the gentleman has no choice to make it work, then he has no choice.

In so far as the contributions of some senior members, that's all well and good, but at the end of the day, I'll hang with the senior engineer of RDs. Especially one that is directly responsible for the development of the 3600 that the OP had. I think Mike knows what he's talking about.

VG

[CJR238]

CJ,

Quite correct. I don't run my detectors vertically. But that's not the point. Perhaps you should retread the OP. Looks to me that the gentleman had no choice to and this discussion was about his situation, not mine.

VG

I read the OP, and even though he had no choice its good to be clear on the subject and not cloud it with doubt. It simply wont preform well and he should ideally seek another option.

Only run a RD flat/horizontal, but of course there are acceptations to the rule like if you only see horizontally-polarized photo radar. And if you have any doubts just reference your own forum and distinguished members of the passed. I don't think you would doubt the accumulative knowledge of the professor, MEM-TEK and now Nine in this thread. No need for me or you to test something well known for the passed 7+ years.

In the missing video below it showed MEM-TEK rotating his RD vertically as it was alerting. Once completely vertical it stopped detecting the K band door opener. As he rotated back horizontally/flat it started to detect the K band door opener.
http://www.radardetector.net/forums/...light=vertical


Hopefully you will update your posts for future reference even though it seems we scared away the OP.

Some more references from RD.net:

http://www.radardetector.net/forums/...e+door+openers...

Radar Detector Tests and Reviews by Guys of LIDAR - LASER

Unfortunately that's what happens when the posts are predominately attacking. That's the real destruction of such things. We've all been in the forums long enough to know this and yet some still must insist on doing so.

I think Mike is going to post some clarifying information here.

I am going to revise my post as it relates to the circular polarization comment. Mike tends to refer to circularly polarized radar as "non-polarized" because there is no ONE predominate polarization and hence the reference.

Just like you were "attacked" sometime ago, I didn't let it stand. This forum is going to be run differently today. Such personal attacks or "war with words" is not going to be permitted here. We can debate topics and either agree or disagree but personal insults, etc., only serve to undermine the cohesiveness of the forum.

Mike did indicate this morning that he expects about a 2db loss as a result of the reflector use, but that should be about it. If the gentleman has no choice to make it work, then he has no choice.

In so far as the contributions of some senior members, that's all well and good, but at the end of the day, I'll hang with the senior engineer of RDs. Especially one that is directly responsible for the development of the 3600 that the OP had. I think Mike knows what he's talking about.

VG

Understood, but an experienced members knowledge cant simply be written off with comments like: "Actually, not an accurate account" when in fact it was. Or writing off the fact that i had knowledge of previous testing on the subject that proved a RD run vertically hampers sensitivity VS taking your personal perception of an engineers understanding over known fact that has been documented many times by some of the most respected members of this forum and others.

When we start taking Manufacturers/Engineers word on things is when we loose all that we have worked so hard for. Jut reference the Max and how it was touted the longest range RD ever by the manufacturers and engineers, it has the DB's but its simply no M3 in the real world.

But in the end much of it is semantics anyway and the goal is to help others and share knowledge, they can pull out what they need. I hope to see what Mike B has to say, it may help with the concern of the OP and provide some technical clarity we my be missing as well as the degree it effects its performance, if after all its only 2db that may be acceptable to the OP even if it may not be for us.