Spectre Proofing

[sethy]

I was curious to know what a RDD detects on a RD. What band leaks? If I turn off that band, could that make it Spectre proof?

[V1 Dave]

I was curious to know what a RDD detects on a RD. What band leaks? If I turn off that band, could that make it Spectre proof?
This brings up a point that I have always wondered about.
I could be wrong but I think that when a detector picks up an RDD it is like a real radar gun encounter, so one could simply turn off their own detector if running into this illegal situation.
Anybody know?

[brick]

The RD produces its own radio waves internally. That's what the Local Oscillator ("LO") does. The RD uses these radio waves to mix down the incoming signals so that they are easier to process. Those radio waves, in the range of 11-15GHZ, are what leak out for the Spectre to find. The only way to make it truly spectre proof would be to totally contain these LO emissions. I couldn't tell you how that would be done.

[brick]

I was curious to know what a RDD detects on a RD. What band leaks? If I turn off that band, could that make it Spectre proof?
This brings up a point that I have always wondered about.
I could be wrong but I think that when a detector picks up an RDD it is like a real radar gun encounter, so one could simply turn off their own detector if running into this illegal situation.
Anybody know?

I think that this is difficult because the Spectre II and III are VERY well sealed up. (The way our detectors ought to be!) This makes them difficult to impossible to detect before they've already picked you up.

[jimbonzzz]

It is the mostly the local oscillators that leak, but some mixer products leak too. Traditionally, the "local oscillators" (or LO's) in detectors operated in the 11-12 Ghz range, but many newer detectors have LO's in the 13-15 Ghz range (Valentine Escort BEL etc).

Turning off bands won't make anything Spectre proof. No matter what bands you turn off, the LO will still be operating.

Jim

[jimbonzzz]

The only permenant solution to the Spectre would be to "seal" the detector up so that no emissions are leaked at all. One aspect would be to "seal" the case so that no RF leaks out, but a lot of the leakage comes from the antennas. So, the idea would be to put a bandpass filter between the antenna and first mixer. The problem is, most filters that would prevent the emissions completely would be too "lossy", and would result in a big performance hit as they would also attenuate any incoming signals.

Jim

[SETITOFF]

As it stands right now, the only thing that will shut that LO up is to turn off the RD. From what I do know (not much...lol) there is no specific freq/band that RDDs are sniffing. There may be a range of freqs/bands but not any specific. I'm still trying to find out if they work on a 'passive search' detection capability as some radars I used to work on.

[jimbonzzz]

On this page it says 11-11.4 Ghz, and 13-15 GHz:
http://www.radarbusters.com/support/speedlabs-2004/radar-detector-detectors.asp

However, I don't think the 11-11.4 is necessarily correct: I know that a lot of older detectors used a 11.558 Ghz 1st LO...

Jim

[SETITOFF]

On this page it says 11-11.4 Ghz, and 13-15 GHz:
http://www.radarbusters.com/support/speedlabs-2004/radar-detector-detectors.asp

However, I don't think the 11-11.4 is necessarily correct: I know that a lot of older detectors used a 11.558 Ghz 1st LO...

Jim

I forgot all about that Jim. Thanks for getting me back on track...and those are pretty narrow bandwidths. Good thing it doesn't cover the full spectrum, like from 11 to the 34s.

[SmaartAasSaabr]

More or less everything said previously is correct. The only current proven Spectre-proof fix is to make a wavebox-filter that doesn't let singles under 20GHz from passing outwards. Unfortunately, this means the reverse is also true - so you have zero detection on X and Ku bands. K and Ka shouldn't be negatively affected to a huge degree.

There is the general trend today to increase the LO frequency closer to that of the Ka spectrum, as most alerts are Ka. This will give a greater gain on Ka, since there is less heterodyning. Note that the first superhet detectors were set with LO around the frequency of X band, and have gone upwards gradually, with a big prod around 1995 to the current 13-15GHz range to beat VG2.

This is generally the problem. If all detector companies made a different LO range on their RD models we would be better off. For example, a V1 would run at 20GHz, a Whistler Pro-666 would run at 25 and the Pro58 at 26 etc from around 10GHz to maybe 50GHz. Such a huge band would give an RDD a very poor performance.

An RDD doesn't produce any leakage enough to alert one's detector. The exceptions are detectors with VG2 "cloaking" to VG2's, and Spectre-cloakers to Spectre I's. It won't come up as a typical X/K/Ka alert. Unfortunately.

When the ESCORT came out in 1977, most every RD manufacturer switched to the superhet design of the ESCORT, keeping the same LO frequency. The first RDD, the VG2 designed by Techsonics Industries in Ontario, looked for this same frequency, and a slight range around it. Worked atreat. Whistler put a detector of the VG2's LO and integrated it into their units. It worked very poorly. However, Beltronics just shoved their LO upwards and became VG2 proof. Word got around and everyone did it. Techsonics tried widening the range of the VG2 however it just falsed too much.

Spectre came out about 5-6 years later, and looked for all the freq's. Cobra tried shifting their LO upwards as well, and Stealth Micro Systems, Pty. just widened the band of the Spectre.

You could say, the Spectre is a lot more upgradeable than that damned Valentine One! :x

[V1 Dave]

Come on Roy Zegers.
Show us what ya got!

[SmaartAasSaabr]

You can always check out his site:

http://www.australianradar.com.au/news.htm

[Radar Roy]

AU Roy is spending the next couple weeks with me and today he gave me a crash course on how to operate and how to beat the Spectre!

Funny, there is no "official" operators manual for the Spectre, just the training manual that Pete Taylor uses in his classes.

Anyway we played with Roy's V1 and it did beat the Spectre III!

With some of AU Roy's simple tricks we were able to cut down the range of detection to 60% on the RX65.

Let me get done with SML, but we will post more info when I get caught up..

[Hessen]

Anyway we played with Roy's V1 and it did beat the Spectre III!

FINALLY.......SOME GOOD NEWS !!!!!!!!!! :twisted:

[V1 Dave]

You can always check out his site:

http://www.australianradar.com.au/news.htm
I know the horn13 gave it to me yesterday.
I was trying to see how much one of his units cost. What is POA?
It is listed as an AV1 but the specific product code is not listed on his order form.
Sent him an e mail.

[Hessen]

What is POA?

Australian for

"If you have to ask you can't afford it"

:wink:

[Hessen]

Seriously......Roy's products are EXPENSIVE,
He was selling the Escort 8500 years ago for $850.00 Australian Dollars.
I believe that's about $700.00 US.
Add shipping and all that....ouch.... :shock:
His own units are in the same price range, but they are hand made not mass produced printed curcuit boards.
All of his units can be modified by him. This how he has been able to produce truly "Sleath" units for OZ.
I'm not sure what he would charge for a V1 modification I belive my buddy from Quebec SmartAssSaabr was in contact with Roy about the price. If I remember it wasn't cheap.

[SmaartAasSaabr]

Yeah I was. He quoted me AUD 1900 for modification of a V1, the V1 of course being supplied by yours truly. Later he quoted me AUD 1500 or so (sale?) Keep in mind of course the detector needs to go to Aus and then back.

POA - Price On Ask or something like this. Send him an email and he'll get back with a quote. I don't think the prices are "fixed in stone" as much as being more case-by-case.

Of course, I am certain there is a lot of work involved, and his pricing is actually quite reasonable when compared to the fines one can encounter in Australia, and the labour involved in stealthing the unit.

I am not sure if the detector remains "stealth" permanently or if it will tend to "drift" out of spec.

I like the product code "ok, it's a V1. What can we put as a code? AV1 how about that?!"

Roy, it seems quite interesting that the RX65 range was able to be sliced by such a wide margin as that. Was this some kind of 15-minute with some screwdrivers or was there serious surgery?

[Hessen]

$1500 Australian = $1438.00 Canadian

OUCH....... :shock:

I'm sure the wife would understand..... :wink:

Not...... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[SmaartAasSaabr]

So that's two grand so you can use a detector and have a bit less hassle. Is it worth it? Depends on what you are pulling in every year. I don't :x

[laserblaster]

i'm sure if this works.. mike will want to know just what the hell he's done at the v1!

and with the top off etc it wont take long for mike to find out what he's done.......

i'm pretty sure mike will come up with something....... i think he's keeping things quiet! but i'm sure it will be worth the wait!

[SmaartAasSaabr]

I'd like to think so. But, Valentine Research tends to be a very conserverative RD maker, and only sells their products in the US and Canada where they are legal. To obtain a V1 in a place where RD are illegal requires some fancy manoevers. Whereas Beltronics and ESCORT have distributors worldwide, VR is just VR - and the way they conduct business seems to be not very interested in stealthing.

[Hessen]

I'd like to think so. But, Valentine Research tends to be a very conserverative RD maker, and only sells their products in the US and Canada where they are legal. To obtain a V1 in a place where RD are illegal requires some fancy manoevers. Whereas Beltronics and ESCORT have distributors worldwide, VR is just VR - and the way they conduct business seems to be not very interested in stealthing.

I agree....what's really in it for Valentine.
Hopefully he's spitefull enough to stick it to Belscort just on a matter of principal and become to first "Stealth" RD in North America.

[laserblaster]

if bel and escort stealth their detectors then so will mike!

if he doesnt he will lose sales to bel and escort, and he doesnt want that now does he!

[SmaartAasSaabr]

if he doesnt he will lose sales to bel and escort, and he doesnt want that now does he!

Lose sales to B/E but how many people in VR's target region actually care?

[laserblaster]

they just get paid either way..... mike on the other hand owns the place and if he starts to loose sales i think the europeans are buying them the most hense the euromode, then his bank ballance will suffer and his profits will be down!

wether its an amount which doesnt affect him or affects him can only be dependant on weather his sales go down if he doesnt go stealth with his detectors!

at the end of the day when your buying a v1 you want full protection as he says! and the best radar detector or you could say one of the best!

most european countries have banned detector use and theres hefty fines if your caught but people are still buying them because they are that fed up with cameras etc........

i'm still awaiting on the uk ban...... they say they will but not much is happening......

i dont want to buy one for them to get banned and i get caught using it!

[stalker]

AU Roy is spending the next couple weeks with me and today he gave me a crash course on how to operate and how to beat the Spectre!

Funny, there is no "official" operators manual for the Spectre, just the training manual that Pete Taylor uses in his classes.

Anyway we played with Roy's V1 and it did beat the Spectre III!

With some of AU Roy's simple tricks we were able to cut down the range of detection to 60% on the RX65.

Let me get done with SML, but we will post more info when I get caught up..

HOLY CRAP...I need to know....please tell us when the SML is finished.....oh I cant wait that long...

[Brent_Vino]

Am I the only person that could care less if my V1 is detected by some RDD? :roll:

There are only 2 places in the U.S. where it is illegal to have a radar detector. It is not illegal in 49 states. (Virginia & D.C., correct?)

If the V1 is invisible, who gives a poop? The users in the 2 locations above are the only ones that should care.

I am protected under the umbrella of law and constitutional rights to own and operate a radar detector in my state.

[V1 Dave]

If you drive commercially in all 50 states as of 95 or 96 it became illegal.
I hear in Texas they aggressively look for truckers with a detector.
Personally I don't see what the big deal is about, in a truck it's more of an entertainment value as it also keeps truckers awake.
Truckers falling asleep is the biggest cause for accidents when the trucker is at fault not speed.

[synmoo]

Am I the only person that could care less if my V1 is detected by some RDD? :roll:

There are only 2 places in the U.S. where it is illegal to have a radar detector. It is not illegal in 49 states. (Virginia & D.C., correct?)

If the V1 is invisible, who gives a poop? The users in the 2 locations above are the only ones that should care.

I am protected under the umbrella of law and constitutional rights to own and operate a radar detector in my state.

No.. a lot of people don't care... but the fact of the matter is that there are a lot of people that do for a lot of various reasons. Try to be more open minded. In OZ the fines are big... just as they are in may other countries around the world.

[SmaartAasSaabr]

Am I the only person that could care less if my V1 is detected by some RDD? :roll:

There are only 2 places in the U.S. where it is illegal to have a radar detector. It is not illegal in 49 states. (Virginia & D.C., correct?)

If the V1 is invisible, who gives a poop? The users in the 2 locations above are the only ones that should care.

I am protected under the umbrella of law and constitutional rights to own and operate a radar detector in my state.

You said it right there "2 places in the U.S."

There are 193 countries in the world. The US is but one of them. Granted many of these 192 other countries have legal detectors as well. But my particular section of my country it is illegal. Therefore this is an important feature. Would you like a V1 that didn't catch Ka band? :roll:

[Hessen]

Am I the only person that could care less if my V1 is detected by some RDD? :roll:

There are only 2 places in the U.S. where it is illegal to have a radar detector. It is not illegal in 49 states. (Virginia & D.C., correct?)

If the V1 is invisible, who gives a poop? The users in the 2 locations above are the only ones that should care.

I am protected under the umbrella of law and constitutional rights to own and operate a radar detector in my state.

I'm sure that your " I only give a $hit about me attitude" will serve you very well in life. :roll:
But you've proved in the past that you are "VERY NARROW MINDED" so I guess I shouldn't expect anything else from you.
Maybe you should lobby the Admins of the Board or better yet Roy himself to ban Canadians, Europeans, etc and all US Truckers from the Forum that do care about Spectre Invisibilty.
What I can't understand is that if you don't care about Spectre invisibilty why are you browsing this topic..... :?:

[V1 Dave]

See what you started Brent?
You got a whole new crowd stirred up that might have actually been in your camp before. Myself included.

[Hessen]

Laser Blaster and SmartAssSaabr made some good points!
(before we got off topic)

My understanding is that Valentine has a very minmal number of the market share in the RD industry. Less than 1%.
So really how motivated is Valentine to produce a RDD invisible Detector when he only sells in North America.
I just don't feel it's a "priority" to him, sure if Belscort does it, he'll have to, but it appears that nothing will be coming from them in the near future. Which makes me wonder how motivated they are.
The Stalcar has been on the Market for 6 years and all the big players have done NOTHING.

I would love to see Mike Valentine step up to the plate, work out a deal with Roy Zegers and make a Spectre Proof V1 available.
Better yet work out a knock out deal and allow Radar Roy to sell the new Spectre Proof V1 World Wide!!!!!!

So Mr. Valentine....if you're watching, how about it???????
If you like my idea and use it, you've got my business.... If fact I'll predict A LOT OF BUSINESS......:wink:

But.....I want a "Vest" and 10 years of "Free Upgrades" for Myself, SmartAssSaabr and Laser Blaster for the rights to my Idea..... :lol:

Also Brent Vino is to be banned for buying any Products from Valentine Research.....make him buy RMR...... :P

[SmaartAasSaabr]

I agree on all points! :D

[V1 Dave]

It won't work if all Roy Zegers did was shift the "local oscillators" (or LO's)
Spectre would be quick to make a version 4.
It has to be more creative like constantly change the LO's or emit nothing.

[Hessen]

It won't work if all Roy Zegers did was shift the "local oscillators" (or LO's)
Spectre would be quick to make a version 4.
It has to be more creative like constantly change the LO's or emit nothing.

My Beer Bottle is always "HALF FULL"....... :lol:
I have faith the Spectre can be defeated and that Roy Zegers is
"The Man"..... :wink:

Even if it is only "Shifting" LO, I may have 10 years of free upgrades,
if Mike agrees to my "Deal" ....... :P

So bring on Spectres 4,5,6,7,8, 9 etc...... :twisted:

[SmaartAasSaabr]

How about a random LO when you turn on the unit? Infinitely variable between say 21GHz and 50GHz.

[LiQuiDz]

How about a random LO when you turn on the unit? Infinitely variable between say 21GHz and 50GHz.

yeah that would make the spectre false like crazy

[itisjustme]

My understanding is that Valentine has a very minmal number of the market share in the RD industry. Less than 1%.
Spectre Proof V1 World Wide!!!!!!

I saw this printed in a Craig Peterson draft but there isnt any real data to support if this is true. I find it very hard to beleive VR has less than 1% of the RD industry sales since they are one of the big 3.

[brick]

Figure out what frequencies cell phones and satellite radios produce. Use them all.

[LiQuiDz]

Figure out what frequencies cell phones and satellite radios produce. Use them all.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Virion]

My understanding is that Valentine has a very minmal number of the market share in the RD industry. Less than 1%.
Spectre Proof V1 World Wide!!!!!!

I saw this printed in a Craig Peterson draft but there isnt any real data to support if this is true. I find it very hard to beleive VR has less than 1% of the RD industry sales since they are one of the big 3.

Craig's statement is a falacy. Let's say, I take him at face value and believe the less than 1% statement. Mr. Peterson selectively left out the figures for the X50 and the RX65. While I'm sure they have higher sales numbers than the V1 simply because of the retail distribution differences, the statement is just misleading. Let's face it, the low end of the market is where you will see high market share. The lower end cobras and whistlers probably have the highest market share. So Mr. Peterson, please tell us what segment of the market share the X50 and RX65 have respectively.

[Hessen]

Point taken Gentlemen :!:

I consider V1 the ONLY real competition to Belscort
I did use Peterson's web site as a reference....but now looking at the "Whole" picture I would agree that it doesn't make sense
that V1 has only 1 % of the market share.
If I lived in the USA where Detectors are legal I would only consider buying from Belscort or V1.
Cobra, PNI, Whistler et al are all 2nd grade detectors IMO.

[SmaartAasSaabr]

OK well let's consider the detector market globally.

VR has no official presence outside the US and Western Canada. There are a lot of outfits that import them at high markups to the UK, and Australia. That's about it.

Belscort is worldwide, and has a big deal with Target Automotive in Europe, their own factory-direct websites and as well many reputable distributors on-line and also, importantly, in "real" stores like Best Buy.

But all these detectors are expensive. And the expensive detector market, has never been the biggest slice of the pie. The cheap models have always had the sales lead.

BGTech IIRC is the largest manufacturer globally. Attowave is also a big player, along with Whistler.

Does anyone really record sales data for the RD market globally? I dunno. I think the current market in the USA is about 1 1/10 million units annually. How many does Mike V. sell? Enough to keep him in Porsches. :D

[Hessen]

How many does Mike V. sell? Enough to keep him in Porsches. :D

And in the end that's all that Really matters.....right Mike..... :wink:

Peterson probably drives a Cavalier... :P

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[SmaartAasSaabr]

I remember a C/D article where they were testing windshields to see if they inhibited radar reception. IIRC they were with Mike V. and in the VR parking lot or whatever. You see the list of cars they are testing, 1989 Toyota Camry, 1992 Dodge Caravan ES, 1994 Mazda 626, 1997 Porsche 911 Turbo etc... :lol: :D

[Hessen]

Was the Camry or the Caravan Peterson's personal vehicle....... :P

[robert]

Peterson probably drives a Cavalier... :P

:lol: :lol: :lol:

you're lucky Sethy isn't here. :wink:

[Hessen]

Peterson probably drives a Cavalier... :P

:lol: :lol: :lol:

you're lucky Sethy isn't here. :wink:

Sethy's in a Viper right now....probably peeing in his pants cause the Viper goes faster in 1st gear than his Cavalier's Top End...... :P

[sethy]

Peterson probably drives a Cavalier... :P

:lol: :lol: :lol:

you're lucky Sethy isn't here. :wink:

Sethy's in a Viper right now....probably peeing in his pants cause the Viper goes faster in 1st gear than his Cavalier's Top End...... :P

Why yes, yes it does. Nothing to make fun of though, I am buying my own car, and I'm 19. I dont have the money for all the fancy cars... You old farts and your big jobs... :P

[SmaartAasSaabr]

I have five classic Saabs. :)

And a vintage Firebird. :D

[Hessen]

GOOD ONE SETHY........

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[robert]

all hail sethy!!

yaaaaaaay sethy!

8)

[sethy]

Thank you robert... :lol:

[Joe]

Sethy,

I do manage a car dealership and would be glad to help you out!!! LOL

I can remeber just wishing I had a car without rust! Those winters in NY were harsh! The only things our vehicle can't pass in the gas pumps!

[xwarp]

More or less everything said previously is correct. The only current proven Spectre-proof fix is to make a wavebox-filter that doesn't let singles under 20GHz from passing outwards. Unfortunately, this means the reverse is also true - so you have zero detection on X and Ku bands. K and Ka shouldn't be negatively affected to a huge degree.

There is the general trend today to increase the LO frequency closer to that of the Ka spectrum, as most alerts are Ka. This will give a greater gain on Ka, since there is less heterodyning. Note that the first superhet detectors were set with LO around the frequency of X band, and have gone upwards gradually, with a big prod around 1995 to the current 13-15GHz range to beat VG2.

This is generally the problem. If all detector companies made a different LO range on their RD models we would be better off. For example, a V1 would run at 20GHz, a Whistler Pro-666 would run at 25 and the Pro58 at 26 etc from around 10GHz to maybe 50GHz. Such a huge band would give an RDD a very poor performance.



this is where having a spectrum analyzer and a rf generator would be very useful.

[laserblaster]

makes sense as the rdd would have to scan a wider area.. plus the false alerts would go up...

this would give stealth micro a headache!

its hard to predict if mike will come up with a solution!

this is one alternative to the superheterodyne reciever thats an spectrum analyser made by stinger!

it picks radar further away than the best heterodyne ever made and it doesnt give off emissions so its 100% stealth! plus its so small and thin it can side behind a plastic number plate!


http://www.stinger.nl/img/visuals/k_01.jpg

[laserblaster]

i've contacted vr over this roy zegers v1 modification as mike hasnt been on the forum and i'm sure he'd be extremely interested in knowing what he's done at the v1 to make it spectre proof!

i have no idea if mike will contact roy but i'm pretty sure he will seen as he cant even get hold of a spectre rdd never mind try and defeat one!

i'm just dying to know what mike thinks of this v1 stealth mod!
it could be the cure mikes looking for!

imagine how many more he'd sell if it was 100% stealthed!