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flipping a car
How easy it to flip an average car? Notice a car and not a large suv or truck....
When you do flip a car is it it mainly due to striking an obstruction or hitting a ditch and then rolling? or could you also flip b/c you took a turn or corner too fast? (as opposed to mearly spinning out)
does anyone have good advice for discovering the traction limits of your car w/o endagering yourself or others?
thanks
-poker
Flipping a typical car is fairly difficult since the tires tend to slide. If you have too much grip it could happen. Basically put - you have to do something really stupid to flip a car
A nice empty parking lot is typically a good place, but in these days of 24/7 operating hours when is it empty...
Good question - and honestly, it's beyond my rather shallow knowledge base....ops:
I'll go ahead and ask this of some of my local road (i.e. an actual track), rally, and autocross racers, they're, in my mind, the most likely to have either encountered such incidences or have enough of a knowledge-base regarding actual vehicle and suspension dynamics to be able to make applicable, real-world comments.
In the mean time, I'd speculate that without *mechanical* failure of some kind (i.e. catastrophic suspension component failure, catastrophic tire/wheel failure while cutting a very sharp corner, etc.), that it would be very hard to do this on the average road-going car, using average road-tires. From my very, very lay point of view, it would stand to reason that the tires' adhesion limits would be reached first, and a slide (be it a wide overdrive or an underdrive push) would be the typical result.
I'll be back!
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Edit - looks like Saabr's a faster typer.
Oh, and as for exploring your (and your vehicle's) limits, I also recommend an empty parking lot (one with either no or far-spaced light-posts), but be sure you scope it out first not only for enforcement (this kind of stuff can carry with it quite the penalty), but also that the surface is relatively smooth and free of not only potholes, but also other road-hazards (i.e. nails, trash, etc.).
Additionally, be sure you scope-out the area for potential "play" traffic from neighborhood kids, as it would be a very unfortunate thing to have a kid run onto your test-track unknowingly, while you're spinning-out and out-of-control!
If you would like a more governed menu, autocrossing would be the way to go.
thanks for the responses,
the reason i ask is b/c every day when i get near home i travel down a curvy hill and when i reach a certain speed, i can hear a slight tire squeel and if i go a bit faster a slight slide..... i've heard that cars can corner at higher speeds than one usually expects and i've always wanted to see the upper limits (with preferably only the danger of spinning out) and really knowing what the car will and more importantly not do, in case aliens or a murderer is following me
what you said about the tires reaching a certain point and then just sliding is a familiar concept to me.. I'll often race sailboats, (i'll skip the racing theory of keeping the boat flat for the fastest speed), but as you get closer to the wind the boat begins to "heel" or lean way over to one side.... the larger cruisers have a good size keel, usually in the form of 1500 lbs or more of lead strapped to the bottom....
Heres where the tire theory comes into play, the closer you heel the more of the keel is exposed and the closer you come to putting the boat upside down in the water,
but the second that keels loses contact the boat will turn all the way around and into the wind comnig to a dead stop w/o flipping (at least in theory it should), so I like the idea of the tires sliding after a certain point and it sounds reasonable.....
I've got a long weekened coming up and I'll go parking lot hunting and let you know how it goes.....
Yeah if say the wheel assembly strikes a curb...
tell ya what if I get my old Crown Vic fired up again I'll go see how easy it is to flip it
Mind you considering it's structural integrity maybe not. I got to find a crappy Saab :P
Back in the 1960's, Eric "on the roof" Carlsson (Saab's rally driver) actually flipped his Saabs over on many occasions. He actually used to use the rolling over technique strategically to win
edit
Auto-X is a GREAT idea if you want to learn your car's capabilities. I strongly do not recommend trying to find your cars limits on the road. Though you can go closer once you know where they are :wink:
Tires vary greatly... a typical Avalon from the late '90s would just understeer and squeel it's way into the trees if you tried anything hard... in that way it's a fairly predictable car. As you near the edge the car just pushes further and further straight, you back off, the car returns to normal. No real crazy spinout tendencies like say an old 911.
Depends on the vehicle. I understand WRX's can be flipped over on the tarmac because of the copious amounts of grip they have, apparently :shock:
I guess it's pretty tough on the street but the dirt would prove not that hard :roll:
RR
^ I think that the above scenario, when it comes to Subaru Impreza WRXs of the current and immediate-previous chassis generations, would be limited purely to true "race" events.Originally Posted by RadarRick
The road-going versions really have way too much compliance in their suspension for this to happen, unless, of course, there's catastrophic mechanical failure or a true "accident" occurs (i.e. hiking a curb "just-right," impact, etc.). For racing vehicles with more finely calibrated suspensions, exceeding the performance envelope often comes with devastating circumstances, as they may not be as forgiving.
Additionally, the OEM-equipped all-season tires on road-going WRXs - my wife's WRX is fitted with the Bridgestone RE-92, in 205/55/16 fitment - simply do not offer enough grip to induce such behavior. Terminal understeer is typically seen, due to the AWD, but both oversteer and snap-oversteer are possible - both purposefully induced and/or caused by bad driving input.
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^ Agreed - this is one of the "mechanical failure" or "accident-induced" instances that I was referencing - i.e. the tire collapsing off the rim, or, as you illustrated, the wheel curbs.
^ That would be what I think, too, although without having driven the car, it would be difficult to tell for certain. There could be hidden issues that this vehicle's suspension may suffer from at-limit that could totally transform this "typical front-driver" into something unpredictable, but I think that without direct experience, based simply on knowledge of "family sedans" of FWD setup, this is a reasonable assumption nonetheless.Tires vary greatly... a typical Avalon from the late '90s would just understeer and squeel it's way into the trees if you tried anything hard... in that way it's a fairly predictable car. As you near the edge the car just pushes further and further straight, you back off, the car returns to normal.
You get caught whipping your car around in a parking lot youll most likly get an exhibtion driving ticket. A buddy of mine got one a while back and I cant remember exactly what the penalities were but they seemed a little too harsh for an empty parking lot and some snow.
^ +1 to all of those, including your sentiments.
Our local enthusiasts typically organize "snow fun" events in out-of-the-way PRIVATE lots. This greatly cuts down on the chances of getting cited.
Updating -
With just over a half-dozen replies so far (I just posed this question this very morning to my local enthusiast group), the autocrossers, rally-racers, and suspension gurus there all agree....
On an unmodified street vehicle - a typical family sedan - there's so much built-in "safety" in terms of tire selection, suspension design, etc., that it would be near-impossible to induce a true "roll-over" scenario unless some kind of catastrophic mechanical failure were to take place (including a blown tire "digging in"), or unless there's been an "accident" scenario (impact, catching the tire/rim on a curb, when you're already in a horizontal slide).
On a relatively smooth surface, even with aggressive/emergency cornering, this should not be problematic.
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