Remote installation antenna orientation?

[bugeyed1]

I am installing a Pro 3600 on an '04 Trailblazer & it looks like I am going to have to install the antenna/receiver vertically with the reflector. Does this configuration compromise the performance compared to pointing the antenna forward? My grill is pretty open for laser signal, but not deep enough.
Also, is the LRM-360 windshield laser receiver a worthwhile addition to the 3600?
Thanks,
kev

[yellowcab]

Police radar is polarized. Mounting a radar detector vertically will significantly compromise performance. Post a picture of your vehicle, we will help you find a good spot to install it.

[bugeyed1]

Police radar is polarized. Mounting a radar detector vertically will significantly compromise performance. Post a picture of your vehicle, we will help you find a good spot to install it.

Thanks for that. I think I found a place right next to the license plate where it can point forward. Just have to see if I can get screws in for the bracket.
Thanks,
kev

[Veil Guy]

It is my understanding that in the US primarily, radar bands are circularly "polarized" which means that the orientation of the receiving detector's antenna could be mounted horizontally or vertically with little impact.

However if facing some radars abroad, like those of GATSO, that are (I believe, horizontally) polarized, then mounting the radar detector sideways can actually improve reception to those sorts of radars. This has the effect of reducing sensitivity, however, to any vertically polarized radar. I have found when driving in such environments that mounting the antenna at a 45 degree axis, splits the difference in reception performance between both vertically and horizontally polarized radars.

In the US, for all intents and purposes, this is largely a non-issue as the vast majority of radar here is essentially not polarized at all (in that there is no ONE predominate polarization).

VG

[nine_c1]

It is my understanding that in the US primarily, radar bands are circularly "polarized" which means that the orientation of the receiving detector's antenna could be mounted horizontally or vertically with little impact.

However if facing some radars abroad, like those of GATSO, that are (I believe, horizontally) polarized, then mounting the radar detector sideways can actually improve reception to those sorts of radars. This has the effect of reducing sensitivity, however, to any vertically polarized radar. I have found when driving in such environments that mounting the antenna at a 45 degree axis, splits the difference in reception performance between both vertically and horizontally polarized radars.

In the US, for all intents and purposes, this is largely a non-issue as the vast majority of radar here is essentially not polarized at all (or technically circularly polarized).

VG

Actually, even against a circularly polarized radar your detector will perform alot better using the normal horizontal mount (vertically polarized).

Circular polarization is actually an infinite mix of polarities as the beam continuously rotates through the full 360 degree pattern. So it's vertical, horizontal and everything in between depending on the instant. Linear radars, on the other hand, operate on a single axis using pyramidal horns or patch arrays that operate on a single plain. It's the orientation of the horn (or patch) that determines it's polarity (which is measured in the electric field as opposed to the magnetic field). So vertically polarized electromagnetic waves travel in the horizontal plain while horizontally polarized radars operate in a very tightly focused vertical plain.

Due to the characteristics of each polarity, both circular and veritical polarities are preferred for mobile radars where good range is required. Since it's the magnetic component of the wave that propagates it through the air, and mobile radar targets are on the ground, a magnetic wave traveling parallel to the ground will retain it's energy over greater distance. Vertical magnetic waves (classified as horizontally polarized due to the electric field) get cut off by the ground and fragmented thereby greatly reducing it's range vs ground based targets.

So even with circularly polarized radars, it's the vertically polarized components that will travel the furthest and be the easiest to detect. The primary reason for LEOs choosing circular polarity over plain vertical is that circular polarization does better in the rain. The normal clutter created by rain dropplets is somewhat minimized by cancellation effects from rotating the beam.

To the contrary, manufacturers like to use horizontal polarity for photo radars. Why? Because photo radars are specifically meant to operate at short range and they do not want the radar to propagate beyond the camera where we can detect it.

[Veil Guy]

Actually, not an accurate account.

Circularly polarized radar can be essentially considered "non-polarized" (because there is no ONE predominate linear polarization) and therefore orientation (of an LP polarized antenna) does have nil affect on reception performance. There may be components of polarization of certain components of the radar transmission as a result of reflections off of varying elements but that polarization is not going to be inherently vertical versus any other.

In Europe many radars are polarized (either horizontal OR vertical), specifically designed to be hard to detector by RDs. Today all dashmount RDs (in the U.S.) are vertically polarized (when mounted horizontally as is the norm) which matches the polarization of the transmitting horn/patch antennae. Fortunately since detectors are legal by and large on this side of the pond, manufacturers here do not specifically produce polarized police radars. There are exceptions, though. The Stalker ATR is a 34.7Ghz radar that is polarized and is hand-held. As such, depending on usage it can be operated either with vertical or horizontal polarization simply by holding orientation.

When a polarizations of transmitting radar are orthogonal to the receiving antenna, sensitivity drops can be in excess of 30dB! That is substantial (which is why radars such as Gatso are designed the way they are). Rotating a detector to become in-phase with the polarization of the radar eliminates this sensitivity reduction. Interestingly enough, rotating the RD's antenna 45 degrees (to split the difference in polarity), actually does better than splitting the difference in sensitivity reduction, often only 3dB. Which explains why the Stinger essentially oriented their polarity (of their antennae) in this manner (something I believe you pointed out some time ago with another similar discussion). This way the Stinger (designed for the European market specifically) can perform well to both forms of polarization that can be encountered abroad.

For those like myself--who have been in this field for decades--may recall that in 1986 there was a detector test conducted (X and K only) and Whistler won seven out of ten tests. What may not be generally known was that at the time their detectors were horizontally polarized. Whistler didn't change to vertical polarization of their antennae until the 90s. The change was made for aesthetic designs of their detectors, not for performance gain.

So the recommendation still stands: If mounting a detector other than strictly horizontally (at any angle) to facilitate the vehicle, then by all means do it. Rest assured that you won't be paying a penalty in reception performance.

VG

[CJR238]

Police radar is polarized. Mounting a radar detector vertically will significantly compromise performance. Post a picture of your vehicle, we will help you find a good spot to install it.

X2

All technical gibberish and touting of experience aside this is the simple truth. Mounting a radar detector vertically will significantly compromise performance if combating radar used in the US.

Good old MEM-TEK stated and showed this in a few videos, its quite shocking to see.

[Veil Guy]

Police radar is polarized. Mounting a radar detector vertically will significantly compromise performance. Post a picture of your vehicle, we will help you find a good spot to install it.

X2

All technical gibberish and touting of experience aside this is the simple truth. Mounting a radar detector vertically will significantly compromise performance if combating radar used in the US.

Good old MEM-TEK stated and showed this in a few videos, its quite shocking to see.

Not so simple, CJ. Gibberish? Nah. Perhaps your English is not so good, these posts read very clear to me. I think an RD mfr senior engineer's experience knows a thing or two about this subject since they actually design and build them.

Would be interesting to see results. I'd do some myself, but I simply don't have the time.

VG

[nine_c1]

Actually, not an accurate account.

Circularly polarized radar is considered non-polarized and therefore orientation (or polarization of the horn) does have nil affect on reception performance. There may be components of polarization of certain components of the radar transmission as a result of reflections off of varying elements but that polarization is not going to be inherently vertical versus any other.

In Europe many radars are polarized (either horizontal OR vertical), specifically designed to be hard to detector by RDs. Today all dashmount RDs (in the U.S.) are vertically polarized (when mounted horizontally as is the norm) which matches the polarization of the transmitting horn/patch antennae. Fortunately since detectors are legal by and large on this side of the pond, manufacturers here do not specifically produce polarized police radars. There are exceptions, though. The Stalker ATR is a 34.7Ghz radar that is polarized and is hand-held. As such, depending on usage it can be operated either with vertical or horizontal polarization simply by holding orientation.

When a polarizations of transmitting radar are orthogonal to the receiving antenna, sensitivity drops can be in excess of 30dB! That is substantial (which is why radars such as Gatso are designed the way they are). Rotating a detector to become in-phase with the polarization of the radar eliminates this sensitivity reduction. Interestingly enough, rotating the RD's antenna 45 degrees (to split the difference in polarity), actually does better than splitting the difference in sensitivity reduction, often only 3dB. Which explains why the Stinger essentially oriented their polarity (of their antennae) in this manner (something I believe you pointed out some time ago with another similar discussion). This way the Stinger (designed for the European market specifically) can perform well to both forms of polarization that can be encountered abroad.

For those like myself--who have been in this field for decades--may recall that in 1986 there was a detector test conducted (X and K only) and Whistler won seven out of ten tests. What may not be generally known was that at the time their detectors were horizontally polarized. Whistler didn't change to vertical polarization of their antennae until the 90s. The change was made for aesthetic designs of their detectors, not for performance gain.

So the recommendation still stands: If mounting a detector other than strictly horizontally (at any angle) to facilitate the vehicle, then by all means do it. Rest assured that you won't be paying a penalty in reception performance.

VG

I bring you facts and you dispute it with nonsense that clearly indicates you don't know what you're talking about.

Circularly Polarized is considered non-polarized.......that is an oximoron.

In order to even have a radar wave (or more correctly, an electromagnetic wave) you absolutely need an electric field.....and a magnetic field and you have neither without polarity. Most of us learned this in grade school with the magnetic field of a magnet and it's opposite poles.

Folks, circular polarity is as I indicated but if VG has got you mixed up with his twisted facts just look it up on the old Wikipedia. And also, as I indicated, mounting your detector with a veritical mount will reduce performance against standard (circularly) polarized mobile radars.

Escort Radar Forum - View Single Post - Anyone vertical mount their Redline?

Circular polarization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[CJR238]

Police radar is polarized. Mounting a radar detector vertically will significantly compromise performance. Post a picture of your vehicle, we will help you find a good spot to install it.

X2

All technical gibberish and touting of experience aside this is the simple truth. Mounting a radar detector vertically will significantly compromise performance if combating radar used in the US.

Good old MEM-TEK stated and showed this in a few videos, its quite shocking to see.

Not so simple, CJ. Gibberish? Nah. Perhaps your English is not so good, these posts read very clear to me. I think an RD mfr senior engineer's experience knows a thing or two about this subject since they actually design and build them.

Would be interesting to see results. I'd do some myself, but I simply don't have the time.

VG

So now your a senior engineer? Give it a break, i enjoy detailed technical explanations but when you clearly are just doing so to toot your own horn and disregard giving clear concise response its just disappointing.

Not one enthusiast would run there RD vertically in the US, not even you so why confuse people?

Actually, not an accurate account.

Circularly polarized radar is considered non-polarized and therefore orientation (or polarization of the horn) does have nil affect on reception performance. There may be components of polarization of certain components of the radar transmission as a result of reflections off of varying elements but that polarization is not going to be inherently vertical versus any other.

In Europe many radars are polarized (either horizontal OR vertical), specifically designed to be hard to detector by RDs. Today all dashmount RDs (in the U.S.) are vertically polarized (when mounted horizontally as is the norm) which matches the polarization of the transmitting horn/patch antennae. Fortunately since detectors are legal by and large on this side of the pond, manufacturers here do not specifically produce polarized police radars. There are exceptions, though. The Stalker ATR is a 34.7Ghz radar that is polarized and is hand-held. As such, depending on usage it can be operated either with vertical or horizontal polarization simply by holding orientation.

When a polarizations of transmitting radar are orthogonal to the receiving antenna, sensitivity drops can be in excess of 30dB! That is substantial (which is why radars such as Gatso are designed the way they are). Rotating a detector to become in-phase with the polarization of the radar eliminates this sensitivity reduction. Interestingly enough, rotating the RD's antenna 45 degrees (to split the difference in polarity), actually does better than splitting the difference in sensitivity reduction, often only 3dB. Which explains why the Stinger essentially oriented their polarity (of their antennae) in this manner (something I believe you pointed out some time ago with another similar discussion). This way the Stinger (designed for the European market specifically) can perform well to both forms of polarization that can be encountered abroad.

For those like myself--who have been in this field for decades--may recall that in 1986 there was a detector test conducted (X and K only) and Whistler won seven out of ten tests. What may not be generally known was that at the time their detectors were horizontally polarized. Whistler didn't change to vertical polarization of their antennae until the 90s. The change was made for aesthetic designs of their detectors, not for performance gain.

So the recommendation still stands: If mounting a detector other than strictly horizontally (at any angle) to facilitate the vehicle, then by all means do it. Rest assured that you won't be paying a penalty in reception performance.

VG

I bring you facts and you dispute it with nonsense that clearly indicates you don't know what you're talking about.

Circularly Polarized is considered non-polarized.......that is an oxi moron.

In order to even have a radar wave (or more correctly, an electromagnetic wave) you absolutely need an electric field.....and a magnetic field and you have neither without polarity. Most of us learned this in grade school with the magnetic field of a magnet and it's opposite poles.

Folks, circular polarity is as I indicated but if VG has got you mixed up with his twisted facts just look it up on the old Wikipedia. And also, as I indicated, mounting your detector with a veritical mount will reduce performance against standard (circularly) polarized mobile radars.

Escort Radar Forum - View Single Post - Anyone vertical mount their Redline?

Circular polarization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

X2, I don't understand why VG insists on these type of responses and twisted facts. Its like i feel obligated to help the poor members out on this forum for lack of clarity and explanation.