$6 Diffusing Tape vs. $100 Veil Reflection/Night Shot Images

[stealthJamal]

onefastzx9r,

Just to give you a heads up:
You have enough information in those pictures for LEO's browsing this thread to indentify you if those are your license plates.

[jwardell]

So are you now going to cover the front and back of your car with translucent duct tape?

I think you are missing a bit of the point here. If the tape is blocking the reflectivity of visible light, then you are reducing your safety, perhaps when the car is parked at the side of the road at night and someone no longer sees its reflectors (and assuming you are not one of those idiots who drives through driving rain and snow with their lights off). Likewise on headlights you want to allow visible light through so their output is still effective. You want materials that transmit visible light but block infrared. That is the apparent feature of veil.

[LittleOverPSL]

You want materials that transmit visible light but block infrared. That is the apparent feature of veil.

Veil does reduce reflectivity of light in the visible spectrum too. If Veil was clear and still cut down or diffused IR (904nm range), then all/most of such experiments would cease.

[TSi+WRX]

^ +1.

Also, I don't think that either the OP nor ELVATO meant to imply that they'd use this type of treatment on their critical vehicle lighting nor necessary safety reflective surfaces (i.e. reflective corner markers).

Rather, it was to show how much of an effect this tape had on such reflections (be it visible light or IR), as well as to demonstrate its use on potentially problematic (legally, i.e. concerns with LaserShield or VEIL) - but otherwise easily "usable" - areas such as the license plate(s).

[ELVATO]

^ +1.

Also, I don't think that either the OP nor ELVATO meant to imply that they'd use this type of treatment on their critical vehicle lighting nor necessary safety reflective surfaces (i.e. reflective corner markers).

Rather, it was to show how much of an effect this tape had on such reflections (be it visible light or IR), as well as to demonstrate its use on potentially problematic (legally, i.e. concerns with LaserShield or VEIL) - but otherwise easily "usable" - areas such as the license plate(s).

Yea, it was more to give an idea. It's main use, if it worked would probably be taping a plate, as this isn't exactly "safety" equiptment. If it works, think of it as poor man's plate Veil/plate cover.

Either way, in the tail light shot, it didn't completely block out the "visible" spectrum. You could still see the red, it just didn't light up as efficiantly.

Tonight, I'll do some further testing to see just how much it reduces light output on headlights, and overall reflectivity of the tail light reflectors. Then again, I personally like leaving my car on the side of the road all too often, since there are idots on the road that, reflectors or not, will still manage to hit your car.

Again, these tests are all on the visible spectrum. Don't have a IR camera lying around (parents have one.) I tried some tests with an IR remote, but the output was too weak, therefore making any tests inconclusive.

[ELVATO]

Went out and did some more testing with the tape. Of course this is all visual spectrum. More to see just how the tape looks compared to untaped. I guess as long as you put it over the rear reflectors, it'll cut down on reflectivity.

Front shot of headlights. Tape is in the driver side, both headlight and fog light.


Front shot, passanger headlight untaped.


Front shot, driver headlight taped.


Rear shot, lights off. Kinnda close. Tape on driver side, only on "reflectors" and left side of plate.


Rear shot, lights off. Farther away


Rear shot, headlights on.


Rear shot, brakes being engaged.

[jwardell]

You want materials that transmit visible light but block infrared. That is the apparent feature of veil.

Veil does reduce reflectivity of light in the visible spectrum too. If Veil was clear and still cut down or diffused IR (904nm range), then all/most of such experiments would cease.

Yes, but, one would hope anyway, that veil blocks a large percentasge of IR at the cost of blocking a much smaller percentage of visible light. If not, then it's just greyish paint, and a good gimmick.
I figured Veilguy would chime in with a technical defense before now...

[Veil Guy]

jwardell,

I used to engage in some [related] discussions until recently, when our company became the subject of outlandish ridicule and flaming by a group of uninformed and mean-spirited individuals who continue to this day to denigrate the product and question our technology. Adding insult to injury, [some of] these same individuals felt it appropriate to openly discuss our IP as a means to further undermine our company's products. You can tell affected individuals within their sphere by examining their commentary in the different Veil threads - almost all of them have never actually purchased/used Veil nor used Veil with their radar detectors and/or laser jammers against real speedtraps.

We have since decided to refrain engaging in public discourse about the specifics of how [why] Veil works and our future product plans - for obvious reasons.

With all that said, you are correct in your assessment, however. Other materials which may have less of a visual impact in the VIS spectrum may or may not exist, but there are not available to the civilian population. Capisce?

BTW, I did provide some commentary to the originator of this thread despite the premise of this thread's title and I don't believe we received an acknowledgment.

Veil Guy 8)

[jwardell]

I really hate when things like that prevent further discussion. And I've definitely noticed that while you are generally present here, it definitely seems you are holding back on full answers to things. (Like mentioning an updated formula long ago but no updates...) But I certainly notice a lot of criticism (here and elsewhere) of products when they haven't even tried them.

Personally I have a tough time believing anyone on either side till I prove things for myself. I've been waiting for both funds and warm weather, but I do plan to get a bottle soon and rest assured I will be running it through my own tests. Not that I expect you to be familiar with my web site, but I think the same way with many other products I apply or install in my car, and perform and publish my own testing as well.

It's paranoid, but it's worth it to really know, for yourself, that a product works and how well it works. I've found a few that do so well I can enthusiastically stand behind them.

[Veil Guy]

jwardell,

For me as well. I really used to look forward to participating and communicating with both users and non users of Veil, in part as a means of corporate good will and in part because I thoroughly enjoyed the RD.NET members.

Unfortunately the amount of acidic/corrosive rancor that was introduced by a destructive few towards myself, the Veil product as well as other manufacturers and our individuals has and continues to be a set-back.

Such attacks hurt on a personal level, as much of my life and others have been dedicated to producing such unique product[s] for the enthusiast driving public of which I am one. Fortunately, our technology has other applications that fall outside of the sphere of this specialized market...

It's really ironic that these very individuals that purport to carry the banner of truth are actually doing a disservice by doing the opposite.

Your sincere questions, however, are totally understood and appreciated and I would like to proffer some responses which may be helpful.

About the technology:

- Veil is stealth technology.
- Stealth materials like ones utilized in "Have Blue" (aka F117A) do not provide "invisibility."
- Shape is still the biggest factor in maximizing the stealth nature of an object.
- The military has control of the designs and shapes (which maximize stealthiness & minimize reflectiveness) of their assets.
- Veil does not have control over the designs and shapes of automobiles and motorcycles.
- Veil effectively eliminates the most reflective portions of automobiles, the headlights, fog lights, directional indicators, and plates.
- Veil does not eliminate the remaining areas of reflection that are not treated.
- The shape and color of these untreated areas may have enough residual reflection to allow certain laser guns in certain situations against certain treated vehicles to obtain readings despite the use of Veil leading some to incorrectly believe that Veil does little or nothing as a result.
- The perception that Veil needs to be "stronger" to improve the stealth performance is incorrect and misguided as the areas which are not treated are the contributing factors to punch-throughs, not Veil.
- Those same difficult vehicles to effectively cloak with Veil are likely the same vehicles that will be harder for a laser jammer to effectively work without sizable punchthroughs (PTs).
- When used in combination with laser jammers (an active countermeasure) Veil will further reduce or eliminate the PTs that exists on these vehicles.
- Veil will always allow a jammer to do its job easier or more effectively.
- Veil will enable a jammer to work effectively when its not possible to mount the jammer heads in the preferred location (ie; low on the bumper).
- Veil plus a 2 head system can provide performance that exceeds a 3 or 4 head system that is used alone.

About Us:

- We took our time to develop an affective stealth product and we resisted the temptation to produce a product quickly to get out the door.
- We've produce literally thousands of experiments and formulations until selecting one that met a host of rigorous requirements of [sometimes] conflicting interests (think all season dry/wet versus snow performance).
- Before selling product one, we sought out the recognized and established testers/authorities to obtain an independent certification.
- We have selected on the top dealers with the highest integrity to represent our product, including Radarbusters.
- We have avoided allowing our products and brand to be associated with dealers who offer certain bogus "countermeasures" which will remain unnamed.
- We have supported the healthy growth of this forum as a founding/contributing manufacturer for three plus years.
- We were one of the first companies to be advocates for the Guys Of Lidar for their own sake.
- We have prepared unique and informative articles about radar detectors as a means to "give something back" and raise the bar in knowledge for enthusiast driving market.
- We have been vetted by MotorTrend, SML, RT, as well as the GoL on more than one occasion.
- We continue to engage in constructive dialogue with this forum's members whenever possible.

When I attempted to share this factual information in a constructive fashion once before, some months ago, I was insulted and the company was accused as being a "sham."

I can fully understand your particular doubts, but at this point, after three plus years, I given up trying to convert every single doubter that exists - that will be impractical which is why we entrusted the Guys of Lidar to test Veil for themselves on several different occasions and on some forum member's own vehicles. Compared to some "other" would-be testers, GoL has repeatedly demonstrated a desire to maintain a level of integrity that I can admire.

BTW, you don't have to believe my word, Roy has always stood by the products with which he sells. He'll stand by you...and us by him which makes all this pretty simple, really.

We've have made and continue to make the most sincere efforts where ever possible...But, for some, this still isn't good enough.

Josh, rest assured we will continue in this mold and I am going to try to focus my energies to moving things forward positively and less towards going-back negatively and will continue to treat RD.NET forum members with the same dignity and respect with which we would appreciate.

PS: I really like your LED band identifiers on the V1! Perhaps the signal strength meter could be like this: 1st two green, next three yellow, remaining red. If you come up with something, I may send you mine for conversion, if you are up for that.

Veil Guy 8)