Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18

Thread: LIDAR facts

  1. #1
    Experienced
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    275

    Default LIDAR facts

    I looked around the forum and couldnt find exactly what I was looking for, so Im going to ask you guys and hopefully ya'll can help me out

    I need some good hard facts on LIDAR: Im not sure where to look, I tried wikipedia (Not the greatest source) but Im still a bit at a loss.

    I want to know the general/average acquisition time for a speed reading, the wavelength of the LIDAR beam, How big the beam's cross section is at about 500-1000ft. And since its not a FCC frequency that is being trasmitted, but an IR or near IR light beam, what jurisdiction does that fall under...I read FDA somewhere but that sounds odd. AND, a big and, how and why laser jammers work.

    I know this is a lot, but this would SO help me out right now. Thanks guys.

  2. #2
    Radar Fanatic
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,676

    Default

    have you checkd guysoflidar.com?

  3. #3
    Advanced Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    7,509

    Default Re: LIDAR facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TRDdave
    I want to know the general/average acquisition time for a speed reading
    1/3 second, according to puiblished specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRDdave
    the wavelength of the LIDAR beam
    904/905nm, according to published specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRDdave
    How big the beam's cross section is at about 500-1000ft.
    3 milliradians, according to published specs. So, 18 inches wide at 500 feet and 3 feet at 1000 feet. (This is only approximations - the actual laser beam is square)

    Quote Originally Posted by TRDdave
    And since its not a FCC frequency that is being trasmitted, but an IR or near IR light beam, what jurisdiction does that fall under...I read FDA somewhere but that sounds odd.
    Yes, the FDA regulates laser eye safety. This is somewhat different of a role than the FCC plays in regulating radar, in that it is more of a concern for manufacturers than end users.


    Quote Originally Posted by TRDdave
    AND, a big and, how and why laser jammers work.
    Here's a couple of threads where I made posts explaining laser jammers:
    http://www.radardetector.net/viewtopic.php?t=23915
    http://www.radardetector.net/viewtopic.php?t=21584

    I'll go ahead and quote one of them here.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbonzzz
    Most police laser is 904/905nm infrared laser. The laser diode used in the guns is commonly around 50 Watts peak power, though could be more or less.

    "LED" jammers usually use 8 infrared LED's per transponder. These LEDs are commonly at 870nm, and can jam the 904/905nm guns because they're close enough that they will still be received by the laser guns, and the LEDs also emit closer to 904/905 when they heat up. A transponder using several LEDs will still have much less power than a transponder using laser diodes.

    "Laser Diode Jammers" usually use one laser diode per transponder, though recently some jammer makers have made designs with two laser diodes per transponder. These laser diodes are 904/905nm with 10-100 Watts peak power, depending on the jammer. It is important to note that the jammers do not usually use optics to the extent that the laser guns do in order to collimate the beam, thus the jammer beams spreads out more to ensure wide coverage.

    As far as how the guns are jammed, it works like so:

    The laser guns are "gated", which means that they'll only accept a pulse and use it for speed calculations when they're expecting to receive a pulse. The guns are only expecting to receive a pulse betwen the time it sends out it's pulse, and before that pulse is reflected back. Any jamming pulses must be received in this time window too, in order to have any effect. Once the gun's own pulse is reflected back, all bets are off: the gun uses it's own reflected pulse for calculations, and doesn't accept any pulses until it sends out another pulse.

    For example, a Kustom ProLaser III sends out 200 pulses per second, or one pulse every 5000 microseconds. At 1000 feet, the "time of flight" of the gun's pulse is 2 microseconds (about 1 foot per nanosecond for total travel of 2000 feet). So, any jamming pulses must be received by the gun in that 2 microsecond window. If a jamming pulse reaches the gun during the next 4998 microseconds, it has no effect at all and is essentially ignored by the gun. Then, the cycle repeats for the next pulse.

    How do the jammers get a pulse into this narrow time window? The jammers receive a few of the laser gun's pulses, and time between them. Then, they are able to "predict" when the next pulse from the gun will be received at the jammer. A number of nanoseconds before the predicted pulse is expected to be received, they send out one or more jamming pulse(s). This ensures that a jamming pulse is received at the gun before the gun's own reflected pulse is, and is during the time window where the gun will accept a pulse and use it for speed calculation. Since the jamming pulse makes it back to the gun first, the gun's own reflected pulse is ignored.

    Jammers recognise individual guns based on the pulse rate, this is called using a "look up table". With a look up table, jamming can be customized for the specific laser guns. This is done so that pulse timing can be custom-tailored for each laser gun, for optimal jamming and avoiding jam codes. In addition to a "look up table", some jammers use a default algorithm to attempt to jam unrecognised guns. Not all jammers use a default algorithm.

    The laser guns generally need 30-60 consistent pulses in order for a speed reading to be displayed. In general, the pulse timing in the time window can varied slightly for each pulse. This varies enough so that they do not correspond to any speed, so no speed is displayed. But other techniques might also be used, such as discussed below.

    As for avoiding jam codes: the guns use different schemes to detect jamming. In order to attempt to avoid jam codes, a few different techniques are used, such as precisely timing jamming pulses in the time window to fake conditions which might be present during regular targeting. These conditions might cause other operational error codes to appear on the gun, but codes which do not indicate jamming. Another method might be to limit pulse amplitude in certain situations.

    There was an older jamming technique, used in the Lidatek LE-10 and Target LE-850. Instead of precisely timing jamming pulses with incoming pulse, these jammers first detect the laser, and then transmit jamming pulses at a very high frequency, generally 4 MHz. At this frequency, there is a pulse transmitted every 250 nanoseconds. This ensures that there will always be at least one jamming pulse which makes it into the time window for the gun, as long as the vehicle is about 125 feet away from the gun or further (light travels at about 1 foot per nanosecond, if the vehicle is 125 feet away the time of flight of the gun's pulse is 250 nanoseconds). This scheme should successfully jam all guns. But, there are some drawbacks. This scheme will definitely cause jam codes on the guns. And, the laser diodes are not rated to operate at 4 MHz, but jammer makers found that they could operate at this frequency for a very short time without burning up. So, jamming is only possible for a short period of time, generally a number of seconds. After that, the laser diode must cool before it can jam again.

    Well, I hope this covered it :wink:

    Jim
    Hope this answers your questions.

    Jim

  4. #4
    Experienced
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    275

    Default

    Thanks Jim! I wanted to make sure I had the RIGHT facts before I started anything, and as always, you guys know whats going on. Thanks for the expedient reply!

  5. #5
    Professional
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    1,183

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TRDdave
    Thanks Jim! I wanted to make sure I had the RIGHT facts before I started anything, and as always, you guys know whats going on. Thanks for the expedient reply!
    I hope this thing your "starting" involves my idea in another thread of someone making and selling laser jamming or blinding automotive headlights!

    If you are put me on your mailing list right now, I'll take 3 sets if they work when you come out with them. They'd have to be cheaper to produce and buy than a jamming unit everyone is currently selling, they wouldn't need any brains, just be on all the time.

  6. #6
    Experienced
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    275

    Default

    something of that nature, between My EE friends and I we might be able to produce something here in a while, granted we have all the materials to build the unit.

  7. #7
    Experienced
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    275

    Default

    quick question, what is an average cross section of radar? I know different bands will have different cross sections, but I found on a radar re-sellers website that the spread of K-band from that particular gun was 12 degrees. I did the math, thats something like 210' from 1000' away. This seems awfully high, is this correct?

  8. #8
    Professional
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    1,183

    Default

    I'd think an answer to that could vary rather widely depending on the unit used and the lens inside it. I don't have an answer for you, laser and light are not my area of in depth experience. I do remember seeing a video on Roy's blog site though that I think had this information or at least some information on this that may help you.

    I didn't open this video but I'm thinking it was this one...

    http://www.radarroy.com/archives/66

    If that's not it there is a video he has there where he shows what the actual spread is at a given number of feet he supplies.

    I found it odd to just learn that LIDAR actually spreads out at all over distance. I guess I just think of a laser as being a concentrated and well focused beam of light, much like a laser pointer or ray gun everyone is more commonly familiar with.

    Late edit:
    Guess I should have read closer what you asked, I thought we are still talking about laser here. Ignore everything above (now that you've already read it, sorry)

  9. #9
    Advanced Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    7,509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TRDdave
    quick question, what is an average cross section of radar? I know different bands will have different cross sections, but I found on a radar re-sellers website that the spread of K-band from that particular gun was 12 degrees. I did the math, thats something like 210' from 1000' away. This seems awfully high, is this correct?
    Yeah that's correct, and pretty typical for the K/Ka radar used nowdays. Older X-Band radar units could be more...

  10. #10
    Radar Fanatic
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    North Bay, CA
    Posts
    1,705

    Default

    i'm not sure if anyone has posted this before but this is for a stalker lidar gun:

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. Interesting Facts
    By 1DREAM2REALITY in forum Driving, Speeding & Traffic
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 07-16-2011, 10:29 AM
  2. RADAR DETECTOR 101 THE BASICS AND FACTS YOU SHOULD KNOW
    By bogey in forum Radar Detectors - General
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 11-11-2007, 03:57 PM
  3. NO BS - Just the facts
    By BullyDawg19 in forum Radar Detectors - General
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 04-24-2006, 10:12 PM
  4. Post your laser facts here
    By StlouisX50 in forum Radar Detectors - General
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 01-28-2006, 05:53 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •