My top 10 enforcement & countermeasure pet peeves

[JDS]

I wish you two would stop the pissing contest, you're talking in different directions by now and you probably don't even realize it.

More importantly, I want SS to elaborate on the point I asked about.

[Stealth Stalker]

11. Pulling to the left shoulder instead of the right shoulder when I pull you over.

I've heard the other way around...because the driver's doors (yours and mine) are on the left, pulling to the right shoulder forces the LEO to open his door into traffic and stand between traffic and the driver's car, which I've heard many LEOs do not like. Does the desire to avoid having to pull out into the "fast lane" after the stop override this for you?

Sorry. We were posting at the same time, so I never saw this post.

You may have heard that speculated by some non-LEOs, but I don't think you ever heard that from a LEO. The law says you must pull right. Think about it; assuming that an officer wants you to do something contrary to the law is a very dangerous assumption, don't you think?

I've never known an officer who didn't get pissed off when a violator pulled to the left. Anytime you do something contrary to what the officer and every other car on the road is expecting you to do, you're complicating the situation and making it less safe for all involved. Now, add in the move-over laws, and suddenly it is the people in the fast lane who are having to jam on their brakes and try to merge. Does that sound safe to you? Would that make you happy if you were in the left lane?

On the right shoulder, I can pull far off the road. On the left shoulder, I have to park very close to the lane of traffic just to have room enough left between me and the guardrail to open the door. And on the right, I can approach the violator on the passenger side. On the left, I cannot approach on the passenger side.

And, of course, If I get plowed into, I want it to be by the slowest moving car on the road, not the fastest.

Seriously, I don't think you will find a real LEO who would be happy about you pulling to the left. Personally, that always amounted to a second ticket for me.

[Desmosedici]

I'll ignore the personal insults, and you would be well advised to do the same. I'm no physicist. But I can assure you that my education is far more substantial than you think. Pursuing that line of taunting is only going to result in more fail for you.

If a drunk shots somebody with a gun, what killed the victim?

The gun? The alcohol? The velocity of the bullet? Or was it the drunk himself? Here's a hint... It's all about responsibility, not about physics, and a judge or jury won't convict the bottle, the gun, or its projectile's ballistics.

The question itself is actually several questions in one. Do you mean in a medical sense? Do you mean in a legal sense? Do you mean in a semantic sense? The answer varies with your interpretation of the question.

The truth is that every factor plays a part in the death. If you crash at 75 mph into a drunk driver, who pulled out in front of you, and would not have done so at 30 mph, then speed killed you. If you get run over at 75 mph instead of 30 mph, then speed killed you. In both instances, the incident would not have resulted in your death had it not been for the speed factor. In fact, in both instances, the event incident probably would not have even happened if it were not for your speed.

You can intelligently argue that speed in and of itself is not a killer. No argument there. But it is only a semantic victory, because speed is indeed a decisive factor in the death. The Medical Examiner is going to say so. The District Attorney is going to say so. And the jury is going to say so too.

I haven't failed here yet so you can lay off the taunts, too, Mr. Moderator. And I understand now because of your position that you have free reign to toss personal insults but no one else is allowed to...

As for the speed issue, please tell me honestly - are you really saying that 30 MPH is safe? That there is no way to have a fatality in a car at 30 MPH? If so, should we all be traveling only at 30 MPH, even on interstates?

I did notice that you completely ignored the questions regarding design PSL's for interstates, etc...

At least you are coming around to the fact that there are numerous factors in variables in determining what is a proper speed for conditions. Too bad you cannot seem to publicly admit that a proper and safe speed may be actually far, far above the PSL. After all, LEO's do it all the time, whether going to an emergency or not...

And no matter what you say, or how you cut it, twist it, fold it, spindle it, or mutilate it... the drunk killed the victim, whether with the car or the gun. At least relative to the hypothetical situations presented in this thread.








(p.s. we used to have an old saying in motorcycle racing... It's not the fall that kills you. It's that sudden stop at the end.)

~

[Stealth Stalker]

As for the speed issue, please tell me honestly - are you really saying that 30 MPH is safe?

Is that how you honestly interpreted what I was saying? I can't imagine how, because I never said anything of the sort. 30 and 75 were numbers chosen at random, and do not represent any statistical significance. I never claimed any magic number of death. I never claimed that any particular speed limit was good or bad.

My point is simple: the faster you are going, the harder you crash, and the harder it is to avoid the crash. That is my whole point. Period. Nothing else. Now, with that cleared up, do you still dispute it?

[Desmosedici]

~

My point is simple: the faster you are going, the harder you crash, and the harder it is to avoid the crash. That is my whole point. Period. Nothing else. Now, with that cleared up, do you still dispute it?

You might want to go back and re-read this thread, and particularly your own posts. I'm not the one saying "Speed Kills". You are - repeatedly.

Things like the following:

"There's no way to parse that one. Speed kills. Whining about it does not change the law of physics. And it doesn't matter if it was the other guy's fault that you crashed. You still lose."

"Drunk is the gun. Speed is the drunk pulling the trigger. Therefore, it is the speed that kills."

The second one is especially bizarre... Almost unbelievable that anyone would even say it.



~

[Stealth Stalker]

All irrelevant. But nice job of avoiding the question.

[Desmosedici]

~

All irrelevant. But nice job of avoiding the question.

You've avoided most all of mine...

Does one hit an object with more energy if they are traveling at a higher speed? Sure.

But that's really not the question. The question is what is the real cause, and what has true responsibility, for the crash... And the answer to that is simple. The drunk who was impaired and pulled out in front of somebody.

If the speed limit on the roadway the victim was on was 70 MPH, and the victim was going 75 MPH when the drunk pulled out in front of him, then there is no way you can say it was the victim's speed, or speeding, that was the fatality factor...

Not anymore than you saying that it was the victim's not leaving his point of departure 5 seconds earlier, or 5 seconds later, that caused his death.

The drunk caused the problem. Not the speed.



~

[Stealth Stalker]

You've avoided most all of mine...

Correct. In an attempt to keep the discussion focused, I ignored all of your questions that had nothing to do with the point at hand.

Does one hit an object with more energy if they are traveling at a higher speed? Sure.

Okay, so we are in agreement. Speed is a factor in the ultimate outcome. And any contributing factor is responsible for the death. The points of yours that I have ignored have all been points of what other factors contribute. Pointless, because I have agreed all along that many other factors contribute. But again, just because you and three of your friends commit a robbery does not mean that you are not guilty. All contribute. All share guilt.

But that's really not the question.

This is where the disagreement lies. It is the question. It is the question I posed from the beginning. You disagreed not because my answer was incorrect, but because you misunderstood the question. Sorry for the misunderstanding on that.

You agree it's a factor. I agree it is not the only factor. So wtf are we arguing about?

[snoopyc4]

The fight is heating up

[jdmcivic25]

*puts popcorn in the microwave*

No but seriously, I feel as if this is like a 'chicken or the egg' situation. And as the argument continued on, I feel as if you both splintered into so many different branches that you are beginning to enter an infinite vicious circle.

Desmosedici, not to gang up on you or anything, but I feel that there are some holes in your argument and also some contradictions as well. It is 3:00 a.m. as I am reading this so I do not feel like multi-quoting right now, but they are apparent.

I personally feel that you are taking the saying ''speed kills'' out of context. Your arguments about doing 75 in a 70 are completely irrelevant. On top of that you posed several different questions and changed your wording as well, but I digress.

The fact is that SS is posing questions and you do not seem to be understanding them. You respond with random rhetorical questions that have nothing to do with that Stealth Stalker was trying to say in the first place. I think you got a little to hyped up and just misread. Not trying to be mean, but you are arguing a totally different point of view.

He is saying the faster you go, the more likely death is going to be, due to the increased velocity of the car.

You return with splintered ideas, such as "what is the real cause, and what has true responsibility, for the crash".

Ill save you the trouble of rereading the entire thread so that you both can adjust your arguments right now...

What kills a completely sober and mentally healthy individual who is traveling at high speeds in a car?

A. The speed, which has a direct impact on the crash
OR
B. Variables, which do not kill, but only create a scenario for that driver to react to, given his or her speed.

The answer should be easily and will end this argument relatively swiftly.

Now the real question is, what the hell am I doing up right now? Discuss in depth.